Msia/Singapore Hokkien borrowed words

[xng]

Malay Words
---------------

0. English / Msia Hokkien / Taiwan Hokkien

1. Like / Su-ka / Ka Ee 合意

2. Marry / Kah-win / Kiet Hoon 結婚

3. Clever / Pa-nai (Pandai) / K'iau 巧 or Gau

4. Disturb / Ka-cau / Kiau Liau

5. Recently / Ba-Lu (Baru)/ Cui Kin 最近 or Tu Cia

6. Market / Pa-sak (Pasar)/ C'i Tio 市場

7. Police / Ma-ta (Mata Mata) / King C'aat 警 察

8. Quarrel / Ga-luh (Gaduh) / Uan Kay 冤家

9. Easy / Si-nang (Senang) / Kan Tan 簡 單

10. Money / Lui (Duit) / Ci(n) 錢

11. Waste / Sa-yang / P'a Seng

12. Help / To-long / Pai T'ok 拜 託

13. All / Sa-ma (Semua) / Cuan Poh 全部 or Long Cong 攏 總

14. Offense / Sa-lah / Huan Huat 犯法

15. But / Ta-pi (Tetapi) / Tan Si 但是 or Mm Ko

16. Withstand / Ta-han / Tong 擋

17. Also / Pun / Ma

18. Where / Ma-na / To lo

19. Bread / Lo-ti (Roti) / Mi Pau 麵包

20. Guess / Agak / Ioh

[SimL]

Hi xng,

My usage matches most of the items on your list.

Some differences are:

>> 3. Clever / Pa-nai (Pandai) / K'iau 巧 or Gau

I never say "pa1-nai2" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone"). I'm familiar with it, but when I was young, only Cantonese people in Penang said this, when speaking Cantonese. I say "gau5".


>> 8. Quarrel / Ga-duh / Uan Kay 冤家

I pronounce it "ga7-lo7" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone"). I never realised it was from Malay "gadoh"!


>> 9. Easy / Si-nang (Senang) / Kan Tan 簡 單

I pronounce it "sə1-nang2" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone"), and use it only in the specialised sense of "an easy life", "a cushy job", "a sinecure", "not much to do", "no stress". For normal usage, "easy" (as in "easy to do", "not difficult") is "eng5".


>> 11. Waste / Sa-yang / P'a Seng

Again, I use "sa7-yang1" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone") only in a specialised sense, like "throwing delicious food away", "losing a lot of shirts you love because they were damaged by flood", etc - where there is some regret. If there is little emotion involved, like "wasting water" (by leaving the tap on), or "wasting money" (because it turned out one didn't need something one bought), then I use "phah4-sng2".

[xng]

Hi xng,

>> 3. Clever / Pa-nai (Pandai) / K'iau 巧 or Gau

I never say "pa1-nai2" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone"). I'm familiar with it, but when I was young, only Cantonese people in Penang said this, when speaking Cantonese. I say "gau5".

>> 8. Quarrel / Ga-duh / Uan Kay 冤家

I pronounce it "ga7-lo7" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone"). I never realised it was from Malay "gadoh"!

3. The fact that you don't use it doesn't mean the average hokkien don't use it. Unfortunately, the average people do use it and I've heard a lot of these words spoken thinking these are hokkien words.

8. The purpose of this thread is to alert Msians/Singaporeans that these are NOT native hokkien words.

As to others on your list, I am just making my list concise and didn't explain in detail or context how it is used. But since we are now aware of them, so try to avoid these malay words and tell your relatives and friends too.

[Andrew]

>> 9. Easy / Si-nang (Senang) / Kan Tan 簡 單

I pronounce it "sə1-nang2" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone"), and use it only in the specialised sense of "an easy life", "a cushy job", "a sinecure", "not much to do", "no stress". For normal usage, "easy" (as in "easy to do", "not difficult") is "eng5".

I am not familiar with senang, but use eng to mean easy and kan-tan to mean simple. There is a difference between the two!

>> 11. Waste / Sa-yang / P'a Seng

Again, I use "sa7-yang1" (first syllable with a "pseudo-sandhi-tone") only in a specialised sense, like "throwing delicious food away", "losing a lot of shirts you love because they were damaged by flood", etc - where there is some regret. If there is little emotion involved, like "wasting water" (by leaving the tap on), or "wasting money" (because it turned out one didn't need something one bought), then I use "phah4-sng2".

Waste is phah-sng, but if we mean "What a waste/shame!", we say ki2-sian7, which is actually Malay "kasihan"! "Sayang" for me is only used as in "I cin-cia* sa-yang i e kau" (He really loves/cares for his dog).

[Ah-bin]

Chhuan-po 全部 is a Mandarinism of recent importation and as I have said before 警察 is another one via Mandarin from Japanese.

菜市仔 Chhai-chhi-a is what they say in Taiwan
墟 hi in Chiang-chiu. This was probably the oldest word, and it's probably Tai in origin.

So my question is a why loanword from Japanese more entitled to a place in the Hokkien vocabulary than a Malay loanword?

I like this kind of list because it's useful to know which Hokkien words won't be understood in different places, helping me to switch to whatever the other person is speaking to make them understand me and feel more comfortable.

But I always wonder, why stop people using Malay words whe you don't stop people from using Japanese and English and Mandarin words too?
Or why not just go with the better option of learning all the words on the list and using them with the different people who use them in different places?

[xng]

But I always wonder, why stop people using Malay words whe you don't stop people from using Japanese and English and Mandarin words too?
Or why not just go with the better option of learning all the words on the list and using them with the different people who use them in different places?

The reason is that most people in Msia don't realise they are speaking malay words and tend to think they're speaking hokkien words. When they go to China/taiwan, they find that people don't understand them. Furthermore, they don't know the actual hokkien words because it has been lost through lack of use. You try to ask them what's the equivalent of 'Suka' in hokkien, I can confidently tell you NONE will know (except for those minorities who has been to Taiwan/China).

You can't switch words easily in different countries, because if you're so used to speaking a word eg. Lui, it just come off subconsciously for MOST people. You may be exceptional though.

It is not acceptable to speak English words too as that won't be understood in China or Taiwan. I've heard people use 'But', 'So', 'And' especially for those from Malay or English educated background. So these should be replaced with hokkien equivalent. But the fact that they're from non chinese educated background hampers their learning.

I don't regard 警察 as japanese word as it is used in HK (cantonese), China, Singapore and Taiwan regardless of whether it was borrowed from Japanese which has a completely different sound.

Whereas people do realise when they speak Mandarin words.

Any loan words from Mandarin are still acceptable as it is considered part of the Chinese language ie.literary form but the sound must be in Hokkien form and not Mandarin sound.

[xng]

Waste is phah-sng, but if we mean "What a waste/shame!", we say ki2-sian7, which is actually Malay "kasihan"! "Sayang" for me is only used as in "I cin-cia* sa-yang i e kau" (He really loves/cares for his dog).

Different situation will warrant different hokkien words , I am just giving a concise list of all those malay words and not an exhaustive list of all different scenarios eg. Sayang has more than one meaning.

eg. Sayang in your example context is 'Sio' 惜. Gua cin sio I ay Kau. (I dotes on his dog)

That's the main disadvantage of using Malay words because the hokkien words will be forgotten over time after few generations. When you tell them these are malay words, they will give you a blank stare and won't know what's the right word as everyone around them uses the malay words.

So please correct your words so that Msian hokkien can be as pure as possible.

I need to add one more malay word to the list which I missed out but pointed by you ie. Kesian.

[Ah-bin]

The reason is that most people in Msia don't realise they are speaking malay words and tend to think they're speaking hokkien words. When they go to China/taiwan, they find that people don't understand them.

I thought that might be the case. Then it's good to make people aware of them, especially when people think that they are actually using words other people will understand. It's also good for Taiwanese and Amoy Chinese to know them the other way around. It's good for me too, because I want to learn specifically Penang Hokkien, and I do need to know the words that people in Penang actually use. If I go to Taiwan or Amoy it's hard to find anyone my own age who can keep up a conversation in Hokkien to start with, as most of them switch automatically to Mandarin with non-family members.

Any loan words from Mandarin are still acceptable as it is considered part of the Chinese language ie.literary form but the sound must be in Hokkien form and not Mandarin sound.

It's all of these loan words from Mandarin that will eventually destroy the distinctive character of Hokkien in the future. Turning it into little more than a Mirror of Mandarin grammar and vocabulary pronounced according to Hokkien rules of pronunciation.

It's already happening in Amoy that people don't recognise the original Hokkien words either, like the words I've noted in another post for "post office" "aeroplane" "westerner" (this last one I heard as laowai in the middle of a Hokkien conversation) - and a Japanese textbook of Taiwanese I have gives "chai chian" in Mandarin, for "goodbye"

Anyway, that doesn't really have much to do with the topic thread, so I'll just add a few of my own from my own notes:

Kampong - village - in Taiwan they say chng-kha 莊腳 (no original character for kha because my input system stinks) I remember reading that this is a distinctively Taiwanese Hokkien word and that Chinese Hokkien says it differently, but I don't have that book with me at the moment.

Pokan - town - no idea how to say it in Hokkien.

Jambu - something like ba-la in Taiwan, but can't remember the tones

Roti (this one is phan3 in Taiwan - a straight borrowing from Japanese with no character)

Tahan - to put up with - pnly ever learnt this in Penang Hokkien, so no idea

Kutu - flea (we say this in NZ too, for headlice, comes from Maori - a cousin language to Malay) is bak-sat in Taiwanese, I think?

[SimL]

Hi xng,

>> 3. The fact that you don't use it doesn't mean the average hokkien don't use it.

I don't mean to imply that other average Hokkiens don't use it. I (usually!) try to be careful to qualify my statements with remarks that "in my youth" or "among my family" or "by Baba Hokkien speakers I know". I only comment on my own usage and that of the people I knew in my childhood in Penang.

>> Unfortunately, the average people do use it and I've heard a lot of these words
>> spoken thinking these are hokkien words.

I agree with the last few responses from other Forummers. In my opinion, there is nothing unfortunate about this. This is the way we speak.

>> As to others on your list, I am just making my list concise and didn't explain in detail or
>> context how it is used.

I was not reproaching you on the absence of more detail. I was very pleased to see your list, and merely decided to share additional detail I had with the rest of the Forum (because I like detail). Please do not view my providing of additional detail as criticism of lack of detail in your original list. .

>> But since we are now aware of them, so try to avoid these malay
>> words and tell your relatives and friends too.

I've had this discussion previously also with Ong/Hong, when he used to post here. I don't think this is either desirable or necessary. I agree fully with the statement that these words cannot be used when talking to Taiwanese, or people from Amoy, and that it is important that Hokkien speakers in Malaysia are aware that this is the case, and that they are aware of the corresponding terms in other parts of the Hokkien speaking world. What I don't agree with is that Hokkien speakers in Malaysia should change what they say in their daily life, among their fellow Hokkien speakers in Malaysia, just because a different word is used in Taiwan.

In German, the word for Saturday is "Sonnabend" in the North of Germany and "Samstag" in the South. The normal greeting is "Guten Tag" in North Germany and "Gruess Gott" in Austria. People realise this and may or may not modify their own speech when speaking to people from another region, but they certainly don't modify it when speaking to people from their own region. Similarly, "lift" in British English and "elevator" in American English.

For that matter, why make a distinction between Hokkien and non-Hokkien words? They seem to say "cit-ma" in Taiwan, and we say "tong-kim" or "tha-na". We shouldn't give up our natural way of speaking just because they don't use or understand our terms. Your list could be just as useful for Taiwanese, so that they learn what Malaysian usage is. In a similar way, it's useful that Americans know that I say "lift", and I know that they say "elevator", without either of us having to give up our usage.

Having said all this (because it is my basic position), I agree with you that it is a pity that the presence of these words means that many/most Hokkien speakers in Malaysia don't know the original Hokkien words (and are not aware that the words they use are borrowings from Malay), and that even if they do know the original Hokkien words, they may not be able to produce them quickly in normal conversation, when trying to speak to Taiwanese.

[SimL]

Waste is phah-sng, but if we mean "What a waste/shame!", we say ki2-sian7, which is actually Malay "kasihan"! "Sayang" for me is only used as in "I cin-cia* sa-yang i e kau" (He really loves/cares for his dog).

Hi Andrew,

Ah yes! Thanks for reminding me of this. The attention for my usage of "sayang" was focussed on "waste" because xng's original posting connected it with "phah-sng". I also use "sayang" to mean "to love" in exactly the same way as you do.

So, it would appear that I use "sayang" in two rather different ways: 1) "to love" (indeed the primary meaning, for one's children, pets, etc), and 2) "oh, what a waste" (a secondary meaning, when there is emotional attachment to what was lost/wasted). When there is less emotional attachment, it's just "phah-sng", as I said previously.

My usage of "kasihan" is however slightly different from yours, in two ways: 1) I pronounce it with aspiration, so "khi1-siEn7" (of course, pseudo-sandhi-tone on the first syllable), and 2) it's used more for "to pity" (in the sense of "to have compassion for", "to feel sorry for") rather than than "waste, shame" (although that is of course also a common meaning of English "pity"). So, I would only use "khi-siEn" for some poor beggar on the street, or someone who had been paralyzed in a car accident, or someone who was too poor to pay for a life-saving operation. That sort of thing. "ai-yo! (wa) ka e khi-sian i nia!" (= "oh dear! I feel so sorry for him!").

I find it quite an eye-opener that even among two speakers who use these borrowed Malay words normally, there are differences in usage.