Msia/Singapore Hokkien borrowed words

[Ah-bin]

it is important that Hokkien speakers in Malaysia are aware that this is the case, and that they are aware of the corresponding terms in other parts of the Hokkien speaking world.

I agree, and just to expand on a point I made in my last post: I think it's also important that Taiwanese and Amoy speakers are aware of this and learn these Malay loans so they don't go to Malaysia and start using a whole bunch of words no-one understands.

[Andrew]

Waste is phah-sng, but if we mean "What a waste/shame!", we say ki2-sian7, which is actually Malay "kasihan"! "Sayang" for me is only used as in "I cin-cia* sa-yang i e kau" (He really loves/cares for his dog).

My usage of "kasihan" is however slightly different from yours, in two ways: 1) I pronounce it with aspiration, so "khi1-siEn7" (of course, pseudo-sandhi-tone on the first syllable), and 2) it's used more for "to pity" (in the sense of "to have compassion for", "to feel sorry for") rather than than "waste, shame" (although that is of course also a common meaning of English "pity"). So, I would only use "khi-siEn" for some poor beggar on the street, or someone who had been paralyzed in a car accident, or someone who was too poor to pay for a life-saving operation. That sort of thing. "ai-yo! (wa) ka e khi-sian i nia!" (= "oh dear! I feel so sorry for him!").

Sim - I agree a more accurate translation in Hokkien is "to pity" or "What a pity". In Malay it also has the meaning of "What a waste" / "what a shame", which perhaps influenced my post.

[xng]

Hi xng,

Similarly, "lift" in British English and "elevator" in American English.

For that matter, why make a distinction between Hokkien and non-Hokkien words? They seem to say "cit-ma" in Taiwan, and we say "tong-kim" or "tha-na".

Lift and elevator are both considered English regional differences so it is acceptable to both and both countries still understand them. Imagine if you were to speak Malaysian/Singaporean English like 'Kena" (which is non English ie. malay) to them, would they understand ? Eg. "I kena summons yesterday".

Hokkien/Minnan is not ONE single dialect, it has Xiamen, Zhangzhou, Quanzhou main variants. (and I consider Teochiu too). If I am not mistaken, 'Cit ma' is spoken in Penang hokkien so I think it is Zhangzhou hokkien whereas 'Tong Kim' is Quanzhou hokkien and spoken in Klang and Singapore. Since Taiwan hokkien is a mixture of Zhangzhou and Quanzhou, it borrows from both dialects.

That's why Minnan really do need a standard so that all the various dialects use the same words just like what HK cantonese has done for the cantonese but we are digressing from the topic here.

[Ah-bin]

Lift and elevator are both considered English regional differences so it is acceptable to both and both countries still understand them. Imagine if you were to speak Malaysian/Singaporean English like 'Kena" (which is non English ie. malay) to them, would they understand ?

Yes, if you try to speak it outside Singapore, but people who come to Singapore need to respect local usage and use more of what the locals use. That should be the case with Hokkien and Cantonese too. Malaysian and Singaporean English is considered a regional difference by native English speakers of other countries, it's just that some Singaporeans and Malaysians have been taught to be ashamed of it. It's much closer to the English used on TV in the US and Britain than the English some native speakers use in Britain.

and back to the topic of Hoan-a-wa in Hokkien...Iau bo lang in "kampong", "pokan", ka "tahan" iong Tng-soaN e hok-kian-wa an-choaN kong!
(nobody answered yet how to say Kampong, pokan, tahan in Chinese Hokkien)

[xng]

and back to the topic of Hoan-a-wa in Hokkien...Iau bo lang in "kampong", "pokan", ka "tahan" iong Tng-soaN e hok-kian-wa an-choaN kong!
(nobody answered yet how to say Kampong, pokan, tahan in Chinese Hokkien)

Kampung - Hiong Ha 鄉下 or Nong C'un 農村 (If you don't like Ceng K'a)

Tahan is depending on usage and context (One usage is on the first post, the other one is 忍)

This proves that even an educated person (let alone an average person) like you don't know the correct Hokkien words until somebody like me pointed them out. Your insistence on using malay words have also contributed to your weakness in the Hokkien language.

Just like average (not all) people who insist on using malay words like 'Kena' in English don't know how to use the proper English words.

[Ah-bin]

This proves that even an educated person (let alone an average person) like you don't know the correct Hokkien words until somebody like me pointed them out. Your insistence on using malay words have also contributed to your weakness in the Hokkien language.

My weakness in Hokkien comes from only having learnt if for the past five years. and my lack of knowledge of some of the words in other varieties was because I made a conscious decision to learn Penang Hokkien and gave up learning Taiwanese and Amoy Hokkien which were the varieties I started with. Why did I do it? Because for all its Malay words, it sounds nice to me and (most important for me) seems to be the only type of Hokkien that young people still want to speak. I was sick of trying to speak Taiwanese Hokkien in Taiwan and Amoy and having people reply in Mandarin because they couldn't speak and sometimes couldn't understand it. So I decided just stick to speaking to people who know Penang Hokkien, because I've come to like it.

As for the vocabulary

Nongcun I would definitely not call Hokkien, it's just a loan straight from CCP-style Mandarin, I think the character 農should be pronounced "long" as well There are some other varients for "village" but I've forgotten them. They're in a book that I've left in Australia.

and ....I missed tahan in the first post, sorry, I see it's tong now.

[SimL]

[I thought over my reply, and decided to remove it for the moment. I've saved it though, and might re-post it sometime in the future.]

[xng]

I was sick of trying to speak Taiwanese Hokkien in Taiwan and Amoy and having people reply in Mandarin because they couldn't speak and sometimes couldn't understand it. So I decided just stick to speaking to people who know Penang Hokkien, because I've come to like it.

Most taiwanese of hokkien descent can speak it. It's not that they couldn't speak , it's just that they would prefer to converse in Mandarin or English with foreigners for reasons stated below. Even Ah Mei (non hokkien Taiwanese Singer) can speak it fluently.

I tried to speak hokkien with a taiwanese in Australia and the answer I got in reply was that our Hokkien is so different from theirs (because of all the malay and english words) that they have trouble understanding even though I haven't uttered a single word. This was based on his past experience with other malaysians/singaporeans.

So what's the point of having malay and english words when it can't be used when conversing outside Msia/Singapore ?

Frankly, I myself don't like to speak Hokkien with Northern Hokkiens from Penang, Kedah etc because it's quite different from Southern Hokkiens (Klang, KL, Singapore etc) so I either speak English or Mandarin with them. However, I find that Taiwan/Amoy hokkien closer to Klang/Singapore Hokkien. I just don't like to use 'Nui' for eggs, I prefer 'Neng'.

We do need a hokkien standard just like what Mandarin has done to unite the chinese or else Hokkien will be a dying language in a few generations.

[Ah-bin]

Most taiwanese of hokkien descent can speak it. It's not that they couldn't speak ,

No, this simply isn't true any more for people under thirty-five, and I've lived in various places in Taiwan for two years with various families of Hokkien origin (not including Taipei, where the taiwanese level is worst of all). Ah-mei was born in 1972, so she's hardly an example of a young Taiwanese any more.


It was nothing to do with me being a westerner, as I told them I had never learnt Mandarin because I was a missionary (that is a very plausible reason in Taiwan). No-one younger than me could hold a proper conversation in it, even though some of them could understand it. I was speaking to them in Taiwanese Hokkien too, just like the people in Taiwan speak. I've done the experiment of speaking only Taiwanese several times with strangers in several cities over several weeks in 2005 and even with children in rural areas, and the result is that even if they could understand, they couldn't answer properly, if at all. In one case there was a seven-year old who lived with his grandparents, and he had to act as an interpretor.

I read scientific surveys on the status of Taiwanese on a blog called "talking taiwanese" which used to be open for everyone to view, but isn't any more. They also showed that young people couldn't speak Hokkien.

There was also a study done in 1988 by Russell young which said the same thing to a lesser extent.

[Andrew]

No, this simply isn't true any more for people under thirty-five, and I've lived in various places in Taiwan for two years with various families of Hokkien origin (not including Taipei, where the taiwanese level is worst of all). Ah-mei was born in 1972, so she's hardly an example of a young Taiwanese any more.

That's a shame, but it parallels developments in Malaysia & Singapore. Where is Hokkien most predominant / what would be the best place to learn Hokkien? I have heard that Tailam is the Taiwanese standard, and that Gilan has a dialect that is still quite Chiangchiu in some respects.