Benzi/Original character

[xng]

Hi all,

Does anyone use this word "han3" (or "han7")? I use it to mean "to force (someone to do something)". For example: "i han wa ciah ci(t)-ciah thang" (= "he forced me to eat a worm"), "i e bO han i tak-tak-jit chua i khi be mih-kiaN" (= "his wife forces him to take her shopping every day").

I can't find it in Douglas, Barclay, nor can Ah-bin find it in a number of Mandarin-based Minnan dictionaries.

I've never heard of 'Han' in Taiwan or Msia/Singapore hokkien. The proper minnan word is 'Pik'.

It could be a dutch borrowed word since you're in amsterdam.

[Mark Yong]

SimL wrote:
Does anyone use this word "han3" (or "han7")? I use it to mean "to force (someone to do something)". For example: "i han wa ciah ci(t)-ciah thang" (= "he forced me to eat a worm"), "i e bO han i tak-tak-jit chua i khi be mih-kiaN" (= "his wife forces him to take her shopping every day").

Hi, Sim,

I suspect the word you are looking for is 限. The definition of the word is 'to restrict/to limit'. In Penang, you hear the word most often in the phrase 私人有限公司 su-jin iu-han kong-si 'private limited company'.

[xng]

SimL wrote:
Does anyone use this word "han3" (or "han7")? I use it to mean "to force (someone to do something)". For example: "i han wa ciah ci(t)-ciah thang" (= "he forced me to eat a worm"), "i e bO han i tak-tak-jit chua i khi be mih-kiaN" (= "his wife forces him to take her shopping every day").

Hi, Sim,

I suspect the word you are looking for is 限. The definition of the word is 'to restrict/to limit'. In Penang, you hear the word most often in the phrase 私人有限公司 su-jin iu-han kong-si 'private limited company'.

In this case, 限 is valid as it mean restrict (eg. movement etc) and not force.

SimL, 'Restrict' can't be used in the 2 examples that you showed us.

[niuc]

Hi Sim

I always use 'pik4'. Your 'han' is possible an extension of 限 as noted by Mark, but I have yet to find that usage in other variants. Is it common in Penang Hokkien?


Hi Xng

I dunno how the experts arrived at the character 塍, however I will always use 田 that is simple, sweet and accurate in meaning. Pardon my ignorance but I do think it is possible for 田 to be the proper character, as the tone matches (both 'tian5' and 'chan5' are of tone 5) and the sounds are related somehow. 纏 is "chan2" in Mandarin and 'ti*5' in Hokkien. This may be just coincident. If we are to write Hokkien using hanji, I believe we should use 田 for 'chan5', regardless the "correct character".

[SimL]

Hi xng, niuc, Mark,

Thanks for the responses on "chan5" and "han7". I am completely unaware of "pik4" and will ask my parents if they know it.

Xng: No, "han" is probably not borrowed from Dutch. Although I live in Amsterdam, nobody here speaks Penang Hokkien (well, a few Penang expats whom I don't mix with and who probably don't mix with one another), so there is no community of Hokkien speakers who would borrow it from Dutch. The language I describe when I speak about Penang Hokkien is the language I spoke in my youth in Penang, and still (to a certain extent) with my parents and uncles and aunties in Australia.

Niuc: I don't know how common "han7" is in Penang Hokkien. I'll have to ask my parents and some other Penang Hokkien speakers. I take the same attitude as you of being practical, and would be happy to continue writing "chan5" as 田, even if it is "wrong" (sorry Mark... !).

[xng]

I dunno how the experts arrived at the character 塍, however I will always use 田 that is simple, sweet and accurate in meaning. Pardon my ignorance but I do think it is possible for 田 to be the proper character, as the tone matches (both 'tian5' and 'chan5' are of tone 5) and the sounds are related somehow. 纏 is "chan2" in Mandarin and 'ti*5' in Hokkien. This may be just coincident. If we are to write Hokkien using hanji, I believe we should use 田 for 'chan5', regardless the "correct character".

田 is definitely NOT the original character, it's borrowed for its meaning. But you can use it for practical purpose since we can't find the original character for it.

It's not the original character for the following reasons:

1. The literary and colloquail consonant don't match (details in an earlier post)

2. The transformation rules between minnan and cantonese/mandarin don't match.

Because hokkien is a language based on old chinese, there are certain consonant shift from old chinese to middle chinese.

纏 is Tinn in minnan, C'in in cantonese,
陳 is Tan in minnan, C'an in cantonese.

It is possible to shift from consonant T in minnan to Ch in middle chinese but NOT the other way around.

田 is T'ien in minnan, T'in/T'ien in cantonese/mandarin. (this is correct sound)

If 田 has the consonant C' (which no minnan dictionary I checked has that) for the colloquail sound as you claim, then it should be C/C' or S consonant in cantonese/mandarin and not T' consonant.

Eg. Elephant is C'ionn in minnan, Ciong in cantonese, Siang in mandarin. Many other examples, you can find yourself.

Why is our other 'benzi' expert Mark Yong keeping quiet ?

[Andrew]

Pardon my ignorance but I do think it is possible for 田 to be the proper character, as the tone matches (both 'tian5' and 'chan5' are of tone 5) and the sounds are related somehow. 纏 is "chan2" in Mandarin and 'ti*5' in Hokkien. This may be just coincident. If we are to write Hokkien using hanji, I believe we should use 田 for 'chan5', regardless the "correct character".

I have no strong feelings on this question, but with regard to your first point, zh-/ch- in Mandarin tends to correspond to t-/th- in Hokkien, e.g. 蟲, 中, 茶, but so far as I am aware not the other way around, e.g. chh- in Hokkien tends to be also ch- in Mandarin, e.g. 炒, 差, 出, etc.

[xng]

Xng: No, "han" is probably not borrowed from Dutch. Although I live in Amsterdam, nobody here speaks Penang Hokkien (well, a few Penang expats whom I don't mix with and who probably don't mix with one another), so there is no community of Hokkien speakers who would borrow it from Dutch. The language I describe when I speak about Penang Hokkien is the language I spoke in my youth in Penang, and still (to a certain extent) with my parents and uncles and aunties in Australia.

SimL

Even though I'm more familiar with Southern Msia hokkien which is based on Quanzhou, I've never heard of 'Han' before when I was working in Penang for one year. However, I can't claim myself to be a Penang hokkien expert as your hokkien is quite different from ours.

[Mark Yong]

Correction: I am a benzi enthusiast (or perhaps a fanatic), but in no sense am I am expert on the subject.

The best I can do here is cite the Jiyun rhyming dictionary's definition of 塍, which is the alternate form for 堘:
《集韻》神陵切: "堘, 稻田畦也"
《廣韻•蒸韻》食陵切: "塍, 稻田畦也"
i.e. it carries the specific meaning of a paddy field.

This is the character that is used for ch'an in all three of my Minnan dictionaries.

The only reason for my bias towards 塍 over 田 as the likely character is because I have heard of the term 田雞 t'ian-ke used in Penang as the alternate term for 'frog' (the more common term, of course, is 水雞 chui-ke). Now, I cannot be certain of this, but I recall that t'ian is pronounced with a low-flat tone, whereas ch'an has a rising tone. This website, however, seems to attach the same tone for both: http://www.chineseetymology.org./Charac ... =Etymology

So, the reason I have not jumped in with guns ablazing this time, is simply because - in the words of the great French mathematician Jacques Louis Lagrange, "I do not know."

[xng]

Correction: I am a benzi enthusiast (or perhaps a fanatic), but in no sense am I am expert on the subject.

So, the reason I have not jumped in with guns ablazing this time, is simply because - in the words of the great French mathematician Jacques Louis Lagrange, "I do not know."

Mark

Your input is precious as there's not many other forummers here who is better than you.

From your dictionary, it seems that the meaning is still consistent with the meaning 'paddy field'.

However, the sound given is still 'Sing' and not C'an. That is what's baffling me to confirm this is the original character.
Even if there is a consonant shift, it should be C'ing/Cing and not C'an.