Transcribing videoclips

[SimL]

I just noticed that xng had this in his original posting on "Benzi/original character"

>> 故 - Kou / Again

He uses a different spelling from POJ (unusual diphthongs, and often no marking of -h or nasalization), but I wonder if this is meant to be the same word as the "koh" that I'm trying to get a character for... (though I'm quite happy with the 擱 and 佫 that have already been provided).

Also, Douglas is clear that it is koh and not ko, so the tone category is wrong. What are the explanations in pronunciation and meaning for 擱 and 佫 (as opposed to 復)?

Hi Andrew,

I have to confess I have no arguments based on pronunciation or meaning... My knowledge of even Modern Mandarin is so limited that I don't even think about such issues... I made my remark purely on gut feeling and looking at "usage" in sources I've stumbled upon (quite the opposite of Mark...). So, please forgive my ignorance. Always happy to read your and the other Forum members arguments and historical information though.

[Mark Yong]

Here is where I throw a curve-ball...

There are two (2) tones for ko in Hokkien:
1. kō (with a mid-tone, same as 好) - e.g. ko-cai 復再, ko-u 復有 (will adopt 復 here for now!)
2. kŏ (with a low-tone, same as 號) - e.g. bue-ko 未[*][/size]

Can anyone provide insights on whether the two are the same word, or different?

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the second ko could be an extended meaning for 固.

[xng]

SimL wrote:
I just noticed that xng had this in his original posting on "Benzi/original character"

>> 故 - Kou / Again

I saw that, too, and gave it some thought.

Pro:
It seems to square with the phrase "明知故問" ("(You) know and yet (you) still ask").

Con:
故 is kO in 漳州 Chiang Chiu Hokkien (upon which Penang Hokkien is largely based), as in 故事 kO-su. But we say ko-cai, ko-u, etc. - not kO-cai, kO-u, etc.

answer moved to benzhi thread

[xng]

Hi Sim

About 故, I agree with Mark that their vowels are different, also their meaning, so this shouldn't be the hanji.

Do you need me to point out that a chinese character can have more than one meaning with a different sound ?

車 C'ia - car
車 Ku - carriage in chinese chess.

I am sure you can think of more.

[Andrew]

Here is where I throw a curve-ball...

There are two (2) tones for ko in Hokkien:
1. kō (with a mid-tone, same as 好) - e.g. ko-cai 復再, ko-u 復有 (will adopt 復 here for now!)
2. kŏ (with a low-tone, same as 號) - e.g. bue-ko 未[*][/size]

Can anyone provide insights on whether the two are the same word, or different?

This is surely just koh4 --> ko2 in sandhi form, which follows the standard tone sandhi rules:

# If the original tone number is 8 and the final consonant is not h (that is, it is p, t, or k), pronounce it as tone number 4.
# If the original tone number is 4 and the final consonant is not h (that is, it is p, t, or k), pronounce it as tone number 8.
# If the original tone number is 8 and the final consonant is h, pronounce it as tone number 3.
# If the original tone number is 4 and the final consonant is h, pronounce it as tone number 2.

[xng]

Hi Sim

3. We use 'te2' (te7-it4 第一) also. Siang7/siong7 is 上.

.

But 第一 has a 't' ending which Te don't have.

I suspect it is the colloquail sound of 至, the same as what is used in cantonese. Maybe mark yong can give some input as I'm not sure as ucla website don't support my findings.

A 't' consonant (Ti/Te) in minnan correspond to a 'c' consonant (Ci) in cantonese.

[xng]

So, I'll render 千萬 toh 賣迄逃 as "Truly, you mustn't play around (when driving)". I never knew this expression, so it's good to know.

This is an expression used often in Mandarin. My dictionary says it is used in earnest exhortation, etc., and translates it as "be sure to" or "you really must"

Of course, you will have to change 賣 to [勿愛] or similar.

勿 is not the original character, please view the benzi thread.

[niuc]

Hi Xng

Do you need me to point out that a chinese character can have more than one meaning with a different sound ?

車 C'ia - car
車 Ku - carriage in chinese chess.

I am sure you can think of more.

Yes, I do. Unfortunately I am very ignorant, really cannot think of more, would you please list out all? I dare not consult dictionaries either, since they can be wrong, especially if not approved by you. Or may be you can list out those dictionaries that meet your standard. Really sorry for having to trouble you, really need your kind favour here, since only you can give infallible opinion. Thank you so much in advance:-)

[xng]

Hi Xng

Do you need me to point out that a chinese character can have more than one meaning with a different sound ?

車 C'ia - car
車 Ku - carriage in chinese chess.

I am sure you can think of more.

Yes, I do. Unfortunately I am very ignorant, really cannot think of more, would you please list out all? I dare not consult dictionaries either, since they can be wrong, especially if not approved by you. Or may be you can list out those dictionaries that meet your standard. Really sorry for having to trouble you, really need your kind favour here, since only you can give infallible opinion. Thank you so much in advance:-)

I am just having a healthy discussion here. But if you think your dictionary is 100% correct, then go for it and ignore all my posts ! You can use all those possible incorrect characters you like and there's no need for this forum !

By the way, its not my website but I find it 98% accurate when compared to other dictionaries I found. This website is made by the academic staff of UCLA, I am sure you know University of California, LA is quite renowned.

What I like about this website is that it supports its characters with examples and classical chinese phrases.

If you can counter-argue logically, then people will accept your argument. But if you want to be sarcastic, then this isn't the place.

You mean my argument is wrong ? That a character can have different sounds based on different meanings ?
Another character is 否, it has 2 meanings and 2 sounds in mandarin and cantonese too.

mark yong has already given you the other meaning of 故 and the ucla website too but you haven't given any valid counter argument.

So are you saying that 擱 is the right character ? It has the wrong meaning. Its meaning is 'to put'. It is borrowed for its sound. And used mainly in taiwanese shows because they haven't found the correct character yet.

佫 is even worst, its sound is Hok and its meaning is 'arrive' or 'surname'.

復 has sounds Hiou and Hok, its meaning is close but the sound is way off.

[Mark Yong]

Actually, odd as it may be, it is very likely to be 第一.

1. 北魏•賈思勰 《齊民要術•陽羊》: "常以正月, 二月預收干羊矢, 煎乳第一好."
2. 唐•沈既濟 《沈中記》: "性頗奢蕩, 甚好佚樂, 后庭聲色, 皆第一綺麗."

tĕ 第 has a low-flat tone, whereas īt 一 has a middle-flat tone. The contraction of these two individual characters, plus the eventual loss of the voiced consonant ending -t ending, could explain why té, as we know it today, has a rising tone. Also, I have noticed that when some people pronounce té, they say it with a rising tone that drops abruptly at the end - which seems to suggest vestigial remains of what was once a voiced consonant ending.

Unfortunately, 至 - while the best fit in terms of meaning, does not quite cut it with the fanqie 反切 readings:
1. 《唐雲》《集韻》《韻會》 脂利切
2. 《正韻》 支義切

The former would give an initial of ch-, and the latter ch- or k- (to use Minnan readings). And both would have -i endings. Even in the case of (1), a vowel shift for the ending 利 would result in -ai, not -e.

Much as I would like to, I don't think we can do a one-to-one match with Mandarin/Cantonese in this case.