Transcribing videoclips

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by xng »

Mark Yong wrote:Actually, odd as it may be, it is very likely to be 第一.

1. 北魏•賈思勰 《齊民要術•陽羊》: "常以正月, 二月預收干羊矢, 煎乳第一好."
2. 唐•沈既濟 《沈中記》: "性頗奢蕩, 甚好佚樂, 后庭聲色, 皆第一綺麗."

has a low-flat tone, whereas īt has a middle-flat tone. The contraction of these two individual characters, plus the eventual loss of the voiced consonant ending -t ending, could explain why , as we know it today, has a rising tone. Also, I have noticed that when some people pronounce , they say it with a rising tone that drops abruptly at the end - which seems to suggest vestigial remains of what was once a voiced consonant ending.

Unfortunately, - while the best fit in terms of meaning, does not quite cut it with the fanqie 反切 readings:
1. 《唐雲》《集韻》《韻會》 脂利切
2. 《正韻》 支義切

The former would give an initial of ch-, and the latter ch- or t- (to use Minnan readings). And both would have -i endings. Even in the case of (1), a vowel shift for the ending would result in -ai, not -e.

Much as I would like to, I don't think we can do a one-to-one match with Mandarin/Cantonese in this case.
Thanks for your feedback.

Like I said, I'm not sure of 至 because it was not supported in ucla website. Ti (quanzhou hokkien) can be pronounced as Te (zhangzhou) hokkien Eg. 鄭 but the problem lies in that quanzhou hokkien also pronounce it as Te.

Its possible its a contraction of 第一 and due to lazy sound, the 't' is dropped. I wonder why taiwanese don't use this contraction but use Siong.
xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by xng »

To clarify:

復 has 2 sounds and 2 meanings:

Hiou (and not Kou) which means 'again'. 集韻:又也。增韻:再也
Cantonese sound: Fau; mandarin sound: Fou

Hok which means revive/repeat. 復活 has the sound 'Hok' and not 'Kou'
Cantonese sound: Fuk; mandarin sound: Fu
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by niuc »

Hi Xng
xng wrote:I am just having a healthy discussion here.
May be my bad or I misunderstand you, I really cannot understand why you seem not so pleased with my request. Glad that we all just want a healthy discussion here. You asked “Do you need me to point out that a chinese character can have more than one meaning with a different sound ?” So I just requested you to kindly do so. Can you help to point out what was wrong with that request?
But if you think your dictionary is 100% correct, then go for it and ignore all my posts !
This is precisely why I dare not consult dictionaries. Precisely because none should ignore your posts, I had to trouble you to provide correct information.
You can use all those possible incorrect characters you like and there's no need for this forum !
Although unfortunately others in this forum are not infallible as you are, surely I still need and I do learn a lot from them.
If you can counter-argue logically, then people will accept your argument. But if you want to be sarcastic, then this isn't the place.
In fact because of your superior arguments, I need to ask for your help. Otherwise, why would I want to ask for a wrong list? If my request is considered sarcastic, do you ever consider how do you convey your arguments?
You mean my argument is wrong ? That a character can have different sounds based on different meanings ?
Another character is 否, it has 2 meanings and 2 sounds in mandarin and cantonese too.

mark yong has already given you the other meaning of 故 and the ucla website too but you haven't given any valid counter argument.

So are you saying that 擱 is the right character ? It has the wrong meaning. Its meaning is 'to put'. It is borrowed for its sound. And used mainly in taiwanese shows because they haven't found the correct character yet.

佫 is even worst, its sound is Hok and its meaning is 'arrive' or 'surname'.

復 has sounds Hiou and Hok, its meaning is close but the sound is way off.
No, I didn’t argue about those things. Don’t you understand? Surely you may be indeed correct, but can you see how you treat others? Since you feel so infallible, what is wrong with my request that is consistent with your posts?
車 Ku - carriage in chinese chess.
Btw, it is 'ky1' in Cuanciu based variants.
xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by xng »

niuc wrote:Hi Xng

This is precisely why I dare not consult dictionaries. Precisely because none should ignore your posts, I had to trouble you to provide correct information.
By the way, its not my website but I find it 98% accurate when compared to other dictionaries I found. This website is made by the academic staff of UCLA, I am sure you know University of California, LA is quite renowned.

What I like about this website is that it supports its characters with examples and also classical chinese phrases. The only thing i don't like is that they merged some consonants together like B and M.
Andrew

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by Andrew »

xng wrote:To clarify:

復 has 2 sounds and 2 meanings:

Hiou (and not Kou) which means 'again'. 集韻:又也。增韻:再也
Cantonese sound: Fau; mandarin sound: Fou

Hok which means revive/repeat. 復活 has the sound 'Hok' and not 'Kou'
Cantonese sound: Fuk; mandarin sound: Fu
I am not saying that Douglas is always right, and the sources you quote seem persuasive as far as meaning is concerned, but you should note that the word in Hokkien is koh4/kouq4, which is 入聲. Do you have any sources that would support 故 having a 入聲 pronunciation?
Last edited by Andrew on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by xng »

niuc wrote: Btw, it is 'ky1' in Cuanciu based variants.
I was not discussing on the exact pronounciation of 車 in all minnan dialects but I was pointing out the different sounds of a character so for convenience sake, I just chose one dialect.

車 is Ku in zhangzhou (maybe xiamen too), Ky in quanzhou, Ki (maybe taiwanese)

Same as Lu (you) has its variants too.
Last edited by xng on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by xng »

Andrew wrote:
xng wrote:To clarify:

復 has 2 sounds and 2 meanings:

Hiou (and not Kou) which means 'again'. 集韻:又也。增韻:再也
Cantonese sound: Fau; mandarin sound: Fou

Hok which means revive/repeat. 復活 has the sound 'Hok' and not 'Kou'
Cantonese sound: Fuk; mandarin sound: Fu
I am not saying that Douglas is always right, and the sources you quote seem persuasive, but you should note that the word in Hokkien is koh4/kouq4, which is 入生

Sorry, I was just a little lazy to type. But I did write 'glottal stop' in a previous post. Anyway, I use a different pinyin than you guys.
xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by xng »

Andrew wrote:
I am not saying that Douglas is always right, and the sources you quote seem persuasive as far as meaning is concerned, but you should note that the word in Hokkien is koh4/kouq4, which is 入聲. Do you have any sources that would support 故 having a 入聲 pronunciation?
From ucla website:

http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/lookup.php

gou7 閩南口語謂「仍舊、再、竟然」。 【例】 〔方〕故較〈更〉|故再〈又〉|故不〈還不是〉 【備註】史記‧卷四‧周本紀:「褒姒不好笑,幽王欲其笑萬方,故不笑。」唐‧杜甫‧絕句漫興詩九首之三:「熟知茅齋絕低小,江上燕子故來頻。」世說新語‧尤悔:「既釋,周大說,飲酒。及出,諸王故在門。」世說新語‧儉嗇:「庾云,故可種。」參見楊秀芳,論「故」的虛化及其在閩方言中的表現,臺大文史哲學報第六十期。

The tone 7 means 'high' 入聲, tone 8 means 'low' 入聲
Andrew

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by Andrew »

xng wrote: 復 has sounds Hiou and Hok, its meaning is close but the sound is way off.
Hio is not attested in Douglas/Barclay for 復: although they do give many examples of Cn. hïo = A. hO. (Cn.=泉州, A.=下門, C.=漳州)

As for hok and koh, the finals are not very far off, both 入-sheng. 文 -k is often 白 -h. The initial is more difficult, but there are so many common words in Douglas/Barclay with 白 k- / 文 h-: e.g. 含 ka*5 (文=ham5), 猴 kau5 (文=hO5), 厚 kau7 (文=hO7), 垎 keh4 (文=hek4), 行 kia*5 (文=heng5), 鹹 kiam5 (文=ham5), 汗 koa*7 (文=han7) ,合 kah4/kap4/kap8 (文=hap8), etc., etc.
xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Transcribing videoclips

Post by xng »

Andrew wrote:
xng wrote: 復 has sounds Hiou and Hok, its meaning is close but the sound is way off.
Hio is not attested in Douglas/Barclay for 復: although they do give many examples of Cn. hïo = A. hO. (Cn.=泉州, A.=下門, C.=漳州)

As for hok and koh, the finals are not very far off, both 入-sheng. 文 -k is often 白 -h. The initial is more difficult, but there are so many common words in Douglas/Barclay with 白 k- / 文 h-: e.g. 含 ka*5 (文=ham5), 猴 kau5 (文=hO5), 厚 kau7 (文=hO7), 垎 keh4 (文=hek4), 行 kia*5 (文=heng5), 鹹 kiam5 (文=ham5), 汗 koa*7 (文=han7) ,合 kah4/kap4/kap8 (文=hap8), etc., etc.
We are talking about the meaning 'again' and not 'revive/repeat'.
復 has two meanings even in mandarin/cantonese dictionary.

The first meaning has the sound Hio (which don't have a 入-sheng), if we substitute a K consonant, it will be Kau 猴 (which is very different from Kou7).

As for the second meaning (let's FORCE ourselves to accept this meaning temporarily even if it not as close as the first meaning), while you're right that some characters have H consonant for literary and K consonant for colloquail but NOT all have this characteristics. Eg, tell me which other 'Hok' character has a colloquail of K consonant ? 福,覆,复,蝠,伏,服 NONE of them have it. All of these characters have the sound Fu(mandarin), Fuk(cantonese)

K (old chinese) -> H (middle chinese) only for certain characters eg.厚.

H (old chinese) -> H (middle chinese) some characters still retain their consonant from old chinese eg 虛.

Analogy with modern chinese below:

K (middle chinese) -> C (modern chinese) only for certain characters eg. 講.

K (middle chinese) -> K (modern chinese) some characters still retain their consonant from middle chinese 港.
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