Hong-hiam 風險

[SimL]

I know "manek" because it is "manik" in Indonesian, but it is true that many non-Penang Hokkien speakers do not understand that term. In my variant it is 'cu1' 珠.

Great! Thanks for this. In my (I guess I'll have to start calling it) Penang Baba Hokkien, "cu1" would specifically mean a "pearl", as in a nice shiny, cream-coloured one, from an oyster, and "manek" could be any of the cheapish beads one buys at a market or dress-shop or junk-shop.

What is "iu-a" here? Is it pomelo 柚?

Indeed it is. The first word I learnt for it in Hokkien was actually nui-a 卵仔 (just using the first character phonetically) which is the ordinary Chiang-chiu way to say it. The first time I ate one of these was in the campus of Amoy university, and a friend of a friend of a mine (who happened to be from Chiang-chiu) brought one along and showed me how to eat it.

Actually, a Greek friend of mine introduced me to a new way that I hadn't thought of before (not that it's that radically different from the old way). He sits down and peels the whole pomelo, first, the outer pithy covering, and then he removes the tough, thin "skin" (and seeds) from the individual segments. The resulting "flesh/pulp" he puts into a large bowl, which can then be put into the fridge. When he eats his pomelo, it's just one continuous food-experience, because there is no more work involved - no seeds, no skin, nothing. Just grab and eat . But ok, not particularly useful information for you, as you don't like them...

Wow, of course I knew that "manek" was borrowed from Malay, but I never realised that it wouldn't be familiar to non-Penang Hokkien speakers (shows my ignorance!). What is the original Hokkien word for "bead"?

I used it as an example, because the manek-e5 is a typical piece of Baba/Nyonya traditional culture ...

Indeed it is - those awful beaded slippers . But thanks for the example - it led to some interesting comments!

[SimL]

PS. (Ah-bin is probably the only person who needs this extra little piece of information.)

Ah-bin: please note that "manek" is borrowed from Malay, and hence spelled with a "-k" just for the sake of familiarity, but in actual fact, it would be pronounced "ma-neh" according to POJ phonetics. I'm always in a quandry about this issue for borrowed Malay words ending in (Malay) "-k". On the one hand, the eye can quickly process the informational content (i.e. meaning) without having to go through the phonetics, so "manek" is a better spelling, but it's misleading phonetically, if one doesn't know that the word is borrowed from Malay. Conversely, "ma-neh" would render the pronunciation accurately, but a reader might go "huh?!?!, what's that???". (Oh, on thinking even further about it, it's actually "manEh".)

It's very similar to the issue of writing the borrowed English word "boom" (as in "business is booming ") in Dutch as "boom" instead of "boem", even though the regular phonetic system of Dutch spelling would require that [bu:m] be spelled "boem", while a word spelled "boom" would be pronounced [bo:m] (as you of course already know). I.e. the familiarity of the visual shape of the word in the source language influences the decision to preserve that shape, despite the fact that that shape is at odds with the normal phonetic rules of the destination language.

[SimL]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your very kind words about my two long "essays". I hesitated in writing them, because I was concerned that people might think "oh heavens, that SimL is going on and on about his pet topics again". Your positive feedback made me realise that it was worth the effort, so that we can all benefit by having these ideas explicitly stated and in focus.

Not to make it a "mutual admiration society" or anything, but I fully agree with all the points you make in your response. It just goes to show that a group of sensible people talking together are not really that far apart in terms of their points of view anyway, and that each person (as I've mentioned before) can appreciate and understand the other point of view, even if they come to the subject from a different angle.

[SimL]

Manek si ha-mih i-su a?

I would say "... ha-mih mih-kia*?" or "... ha-mih lai?" rather than "ha-mih su?"

Hi Andrew,

Yes, definitely. For idiomatic usage your two suggestions are far superior. I would however like to point out that they are the best formulation when one knows that "manek" is a noun. In a more general context, for someone like Ah-bin, the word in your original sentence would have come across as just a word from any part of speech, i.e. it might have been a verb or conjunction etc. So, in that context, "ha-mi i-su" is fine too, IMHO...

[SimL]

What is "iu-a" here? Is it pomelo 柚?

Hi niuc,

For "pomelo", the "-a" is obligatory in my variant. Same applies for "hi-a" for "ear". I speculate this might be because "lu ai chiah iu bo?" could be confused with "do you want to eat some oil?"... . Other than these two, "-a" is not that commonly used in Penang Hokkien (though there is "chhai-tiam-a", mentioned in an earlier reply). This is in contrast to Taiwanese, which loves to put "-a" on lots of nouns.

The one which made me laugh was when I first went to Taiwan and discovered that they called "oyster omelette" - that delicious (and typically Hokkien) dish - "o-a-chien". I had to laugh, because I thought that (to me) "o" are pretty small already, so "o-a" would have to be really miniscule .

[SimL]

On a slightly different question "Hanji" 漢字 for "Chinese characters" I know is used in Taiwan and Amoy nowadays, where it has replaced an older "Tiong-kok-ji" 中國字, but isn't the generally used Hokkien word in Malaysia "Tng-lang-ji" 唐人字 - or does no-one say that any more?

Thanks! This reminds me of the most natural and original way to say it in my variant i.e. "Tng-lang-ji" 唐人字

Niuc: yes, that is exactly what we called it when I was young too. The question "Can he read Chinese?" was either "i e-hiau tak tng-lang-ji bo?" or "i e-hiau khuaN (看) tng-lang-ji bo?".

Andrew: just as a matter of interest (as we spoke about it earlier), in the last case, the "khuaN" could have either the running- or the standing-tone form, so that supports your assertion earlier that Penang Hokkien often doesn't have the running-tone form of the verb, even when followed by the object.

SimL
PS. In my variant "tng-lang" is often pronounced "tə-nang". In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it's the more normal pronunciation of 唐人, and we would only have said "tng-lang" to explain what the two syllables actually were, without ever saying it like that in normal speech. I wonder whether this "nang" is Teochew influence.

[Ah-bin]

For me it is more a Japanicism/Koreanicism from kanji/hanja as opposed to kana/hangul/peh-oe-ji - in Chinese it would just be 字. Hokkien did use 漢文 to refer to the reading of literary Chinese in 讀書音.

Yes, I should have thought of that about the 字, I think literary Chinese would have been the same too, though, just 冊 for literary Chinese texts, because literary Chinese was the only form of writing that most people came across.

I only just put that in because I have a special fondness for all those words in Penang which began with "Tng-lang" 唐人or "Ang-mO" 紅毛 to make the distinctions between Chinese and Western things. Most of them have died out in other varieties of Chinese as what was once normal - I'll give examples in Hokkien (saN = clothes) became one of two types (tng-lang-saN =Chinese clothes vs. ang-mO-saN = western clothes) and then became abnormal (tng-lang-saN Chinese clothes vs. saN = western clothes)

紅毛灰 for "concrete" seems to be hanging on in Cantonese and Hokkien. I think it's 紅毛土 in Taiwan.

[niuc]

Indeed it is. The first word I learnt for it in Hokkien was actually nui-a 卵仔 (just using the first character phonetically) which is the ordinary Chiang-chiu way to say it.

Wow, Ciangciu (Chiang-chiu) way of calling 柚 'nui-a' is very special. I was a bit surprised, but come to think about it I shouldn't be... e.g. cicada is called 'a1-i5' in my Tang-ua* (Tong-an) variant, which is very different from others.

Great! Thanks for this. In my (I guess I'll have to start calling it) Penang Baba Hokkien, "cu1" would specifically mean a "pearl", as in a nice shiny, cream-coloured one, from an oyster, and "manek" could be any of the cheapish beads one buys at a market or dress-shop or junk-shop.

I see, so 'cu1' has more specialized meaning in Penang. In my variant, 'cu1' has broader meaning. For "pearl", we say 'cin1-cu1' (should it be 真珠 as 珍珠 will render 'tin1-cu1'?). Light bulb in my variant is called 'tian7-cu1' 電珠.

What is "iu-a" here? Is it pomelo 柚?

Hi niuc,

For "pomelo", the "-a" is obligatory in my variant. Same applies for "hi-a" for "ear". I speculate this might be because "lu ai chiah iu bo?" could be confused with "do you want to eat some oil?"... . Other than these two, "-a" is not that commonly used in Penang Hokkien (though there is "chhai-tiam-a", mentioned in an earlier reply). This is in contrast to Taiwanese, which loves to put "-a" on lots of nouns.

The one which made me laugh was when I first went to Taiwan and discovered that they called "oyster omelette" - that delicious (and typically Hokkien) dish - "o-a-chien". I had to laugh, because I thought that (to me) "o" are pretty small already, so "o-a" would have to be really miniscule .

Thank you, Sim. In my variant usually people just say 柚 'iu7', and its tone is quite different from 油 'iu5' (oil), hence so far we haven't gotten confused yet Same as your impression, 蠔仔 "o5-a8" (oyster) tends to mean "small oyster" for me. Similarly, 'iu-a' tends to impress me that the pomelo is small. We call a kind of big pomelo 'ban7-tan3-iu7', not sure if 'ban7-tan3' is 萬誕 or something else. In Indonesia pomelo is called "jeruk bali" (Balinese orange).

For "ear", we usually say 耳仔 'hi7-a3' too. "Children" is 'gin5-a8' (or 'gi5-na8' 兒仔? -> 兒 'gi5') -> how do you say that in Penang Hokkien? These words remind me of 'gin5-a8-lang5 u7-hi7 bo5-chui3' (兒仔人有耳無嘴?).

Niuc: yes, that is exactly what we called it when I was young too. The question "Can he read Chinese?" was either "i e-hiau tak tng-lang-ji bo?" or "i e-hiau khuaN (看) tng-lang-ji bo?".

In my variant the latter (using 看 'khua3') sounds more natural.

[Andrew]

For "ear", we usually say 耳仔 'hi7-a3' too. "Children" is 'gin5-a8' (or 'gi5-na8' 兒仔? -> 兒 'gi5') -> how do you say that in Penang Hokkien? These words remind me of 'gin5-a8-lang5 u7-hi7 bo5-chui3' (兒仔人有耳無嘴?).

I think 兒 is pronounced ji5, e.g. 囝兒 kia*2-ji5, which is the only expression I have heard it in, e.g. i bo kia*2-ji5, he has no children.

[niuc]

I think 兒 is pronounced ji5, e.g. 囝兒 kia*2-ji5, which is the only expression I have heard it in, e.g. i bo kia*2-ji5, he has no children.

Yes, thank you, 兒 indeed is 'ji5'. However, I ever heard 兒童 pronounced as 'gi5-tong5'. In Taiwanese tv, I ever heard some rare pronunciation of 二 as 'gi7'. Not sure if this variant of 'j->g' is "acceptable" or actually only "a mistake".