Thanks for taking the time to give your explanation. You made complete sense!
So, there are a number of alternatives for the "khi-hong" problem. We can continue looking for the "correct" character, but seeing as the usage is so restricted (not even the south of mainland Malaysia uses it), perhaps it's not even worth doing this. Alternatively, we can just agree on one of the candidates and "misuse" it. I'm not against that solution, because I believe in a practical approach. I think it's much more important to get Hokkien spoken and written, even slightly "incorrectly" (either grammatically, in terms of vocabulary, borrowed words from other languages, borrowed characters, etc, etc) than to sit around and watch it die out. (I am not however avocating "anything goes", as I've tried to point out in the past - standards and good/careful usage are important.) Yet another alternative is that we can coin our own character, and use it. But in this modern age of computer standards and Unicode encoding, this seems like quite a pointless direction to go in. There are already so many "dialect" characters needed for Hokkien which haven't yet been accepted in Unicode. Am I right in thinking that this is one of the areas of interest to you? If so, then I encourage you to try and get as many of them accepted as possible!
Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi Aokh1979 & Sim
Aokh: Thanks for the 徦 & 挴, it is interesting to know these less known hanji (regardless if they are indeed the original characters for those Hokkien words).
Sim: 發癀 huat4-hong5 in my variant means inflammation (assuming 癀 is the correct hanji). Another homonym 'huat4-hong5' means to get very angry (furious).
Although they are pronounced identically (and 'huat4' in both is 發), I agree with Aokh that 'hong5' should be different. However, I don't think it is 惶. 惶 means fearful, in colloquial is 'hia*5' -> 驚惶 'kia*1-hia*5' = fearful. I am not sure about 遑.
Even 走狗 ('cau2-kau2') in Mandarin (zou3gou3) means running dog (traitor) and not "walking dog", so we can be sure that 走 originally means to run (as it still does in Hokkien).
短 is commonly used as hanji for 'ter2' (short) in Hokkien (ref. http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/lookup.php & http://203.64.42.21/iug/ungian/SoannTen ... taihoa.asp ). Aokh may be right on possibility of Manchu influence in its pronunciation (duan3 in Mandarin), but I think the meaning is still there, as it is a "combined picture" of an arrow and a bean -> if the arrow has the same length as the bean, it indeed is short!
While it is true that majority of hanji are 像聲 (phono-semantic), many of them at the same time are also 像形(pictographic) or 會意(ideographic), e.g. head is 頭, with the phonetic part linked to 豆 (bean) rather than (part of) 斗, 投, 兜, 偷, because the shape of head is more similar to 豆 rather than 斗 etc.
Aokh: 黃病 'ng5-pi*7' is jaundice, I got it too as a child and recovered after eating quite many doses of Chinese medicine, but yours is neonatal jaundice (usually harmless). Anyway, it seems to be rare nowadays.
Aokh: Thanks for the 徦 & 挴, it is interesting to know these less known hanji (regardless if they are indeed the original characters for those Hokkien words).
Sim: 發癀 huat4-hong5 in my variant means inflammation (assuming 癀 is the correct hanji). Another homonym 'huat4-hong5' means to get very angry (furious).
Although they are pronounced identically (and 'huat4' in both is 發), I agree with Aokh that 'hong5' should be different. However, I don't think it is 惶. 惶 means fearful, in colloquial is 'hia*5' -> 驚惶 'kia*1-hia*5' = fearful. I am not sure about 遑.
Even 走狗 ('cau2-kau2') in Mandarin (zou3gou3) means running dog (traitor) and not "walking dog", so we can be sure that 走 originally means to run (as it still does in Hokkien).
短 is commonly used as hanji for 'ter2' (short) in Hokkien (ref. http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/lookup.php & http://203.64.42.21/iug/ungian/SoannTen ... taihoa.asp ). Aokh may be right on possibility of Manchu influence in its pronunciation (duan3 in Mandarin), but I think the meaning is still there, as it is a "combined picture" of an arrow and a bean -> if the arrow has the same length as the bean, it indeed is short!
While it is true that majority of hanji are 像聲 (phono-semantic), many of them at the same time are also 像形(pictographic) or 會意(ideographic), e.g. head is 頭, with the phonetic part linked to 豆 (bean) rather than (part of) 斗, 投, 兜, 偷, because the shape of head is more similar to 豆 rather than 斗 etc.
Aokh: 黃病 'ng5-pi*7' is jaundice, I got it too as a child and recovered after eating quite many doses of Chinese medicine, but yours is neonatal jaundice (usually harmless). Anyway, it seems to be rare nowadays.
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi Niuc,
Wonderful to know this! The "hong5" here is almost definitely the same one as Penang Hokkien "khi2-hong5". I now accept both your and Aokh's assertion that this should be different from 癀.Another homonym 'huat4-hong5' means to get very angry (furious).
I'm glad you pointed this out to me. It will be a good way for me to remember from now on which dialect has the original meaning.Even 走狗 ('cau2-kau2') in Mandarin (zou3gou3) means running dog (traitor) and not "walking dog", so we can be sure that 走 originally means to run (as it still does in Hokkien).
I've always wondered why 海 is pronounced "hai3", when most of the similar characters I know are pronounced "mei" (每, 梅, 霉, 莓). I checked zhongwen.com, and it turns out that 每 isn't functioning as a phonetic in this case. It's contributing a semantic meaning, along with the radical: it's "where ALL 每 WATER 氵 goes"!While it is true that majority of hanji are 像聲 (phono-semantic), many of them at the same time are also 像形(pictographic) or 會意(ideographic), ...
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
PS. Actually, it appears to be my lack of knowledge of Chinese characters which made me wonder this... I did some more investigation, and it turns out that there are quite a lot of characters based on 每 which are not pronounced "mei": 海 (hai3), 悔 (hui3), 侮 (wu3), 晦 (hui4), 毓 (yu4), 誨 (hui4), 烸 (hai3).
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi Sim
The top part of 每 "every" (ref. zhongwen.com) is derived from a blade of grass. That probably is historically correct. Some suggest that the top part resembles 人, so the character is a combination of 人 and 母, "every human has a mother". Similarly "warm" 溫 can be written as 温, so water 氵 inside a vessel 皿 under the sun 日. This is probably historically incorrect (pseudo-etymology), but it helps us to remember the meaning of the word more easily.
The top part of 每 "every" (ref. zhongwen.com) is derived from a blade of grass. That probably is historically correct. Some suggest that the top part resembles 人, so the character is a combination of 人 and 母, "every human has a mother". Similarly "warm" 溫 can be written as 温, so water 氵 inside a vessel 皿 under the sun 日. This is probably historically incorrect (pseudo-etymology), but it helps us to remember the meaning of the word more easily.
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi niuc:
That's an interesting analysis !
Based on what I understand from 溫, it's the name of a river in Guizhou province today. The original writing of 溫 should be 𥁕 without the water. That's 囚 (prisoner) with a 皿 (container), that means to feed the prisoner. 氵 was only added when Chinese named the river. I dunno when exactly did it start to mean "warm" in Chinese. The 日 that replaces 囚 is a shorthand. Simplified Chinese was later standardised to the 日 part.
Indeed, 海 made me wonder for a while. But like niuc says, the truth is that 每 does mean a blade of grass though some researchers say it's the alternate writing of 母. You see, it does make sense as we often say "just became a mother" as 初爲人母. Looks like traditionally Chinese have been emphasising on the 母 with 人, even though it's quite redundant.
That's an interesting analysis !
Based on what I understand from 溫, it's the name of a river in Guizhou province today. The original writing of 溫 should be 𥁕 without the water. That's 囚 (prisoner) with a 皿 (container), that means to feed the prisoner. 氵 was only added when Chinese named the river. I dunno when exactly did it start to mean "warm" in Chinese. The 日 that replaces 囚 is a shorthand. Simplified Chinese was later standardised to the 日 part.
Indeed, 海 made me wonder for a while. But like niuc says, the truth is that 每 does mean a blade of grass though some researchers say it's the alternate writing of 母. You see, it does make sense as we often say "just became a mother" as 初爲人母. Looks like traditionally Chinese have been emphasising on the 母 with 人, even though it's quite redundant.
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi Aokh1979
Thanks for the info, I didn't know that 溫 is a river name in 貴州. Zhongwen.com does give the etymology of [囚 above 皿] as offering a plate (food) to prisoner, thus "benevolence". It also makes sense that "benevolent water" feels "warm" (at least in heart)
Talking about 溫, I read that Wenzhou 溫州 has some Minnan 閩南 speakers. Do you have more info regarding this? How close is this variant to Hokkien?
Also 囚 reminds me of 泅 i.e. 'siu5' -> 泅浴 'siu5-ik8' or 泅水 'siu5-cui2' to swim in Hokkien, although 游泳 is used in 游泳池 'iu5-ing2-ti5' swimming pool (= 泅浴池 'siu5-ik8-ti5'). Since 囚 means prisoner, at the first glance it may seem unappropriate that "prisoner" in "water" means to "swim" (granted that 囚 is there for phonetic purpose), but actually 囚 itself is a picture of a man confined/surrounded, so 泅 is indeed fitting i.e. a man surrounded by water -> to swim
Thanks for the info, I didn't know that 溫 is a river name in 貴州. Zhongwen.com does give the etymology of [囚 above 皿] as offering a plate (food) to prisoner, thus "benevolence". It also makes sense that "benevolent water" feels "warm" (at least in heart)
Talking about 溫, I read that Wenzhou 溫州 has some Minnan 閩南 speakers. Do you have more info regarding this? How close is this variant to Hokkien?
Also 囚 reminds me of 泅 i.e. 'siu5' -> 泅浴 'siu5-ik8' or 泅水 'siu5-cui2' to swim in Hokkien, although 游泳 is used in 游泳池 'iu5-ing2-ti5' swimming pool (= 泅浴池 'siu5-ik8-ti5'). Since 囚 means prisoner, at the first glance it may seem unappropriate that "prisoner" in "water" means to "swim" (granted that 囚 is there for phonetic purpose), but actually 囚 itself is a picture of a man confined/surrounded, so 泅 is indeed fitting i.e. a man surrounded by water -> to swim
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi niuc:
Yes, 溫州 does have their variant of 閩南話 spoken in a few cities in the southern part, neighbouring 福鼎. I have friends from 福鼎 and they speak a "vague" version of 閩南話 mixed with tones from 閩東話. One of them was memorising a rhyme to me, regarding sending a newlywed couple to their 新房, out of the 4 lines with 7 characters each, I was able to understand 80%. I will ask him to read again and I will upload it somewhere for you.
泅 should not be the original writing of siu in Hokkien. But before that, I think swimming was never a hobby or sports game in Han Dynasty. One would swim only when one had to, like when one fell into a stream. Do you agree ? Therefore, 泅 does make sense.
But according to what I understand, the precedent writing of "swim" should be 汓 (in case your screen does not display it - it's 氵子). The pronunciation is exactly the same: Siu. A man in the water. He was not surrounded, but ON the water, if you turn the pictorial character 90° to the left and look at it, it is a man propelling ON the water with his arm. Your thought ?
Yes, 溫州 does have their variant of 閩南話 spoken in a few cities in the southern part, neighbouring 福鼎. I have friends from 福鼎 and they speak a "vague" version of 閩南話 mixed with tones from 閩東話. One of them was memorising a rhyme to me, regarding sending a newlywed couple to their 新房, out of the 4 lines with 7 characters each, I was able to understand 80%. I will ask him to read again and I will upload it somewhere for you.
泅 should not be the original writing of siu in Hokkien. But before that, I think swimming was never a hobby or sports game in Han Dynasty. One would swim only when one had to, like when one fell into a stream. Do you agree ? Therefore, 泅 does make sense.
But according to what I understand, the precedent writing of "swim" should be 汓 (in case your screen does not display it - it's 氵子). The pronunciation is exactly the same: Siu. A man in the water. He was not surrounded, but ON the water, if you turn the pictorial character 90° to the left and look at it, it is a man propelling ON the water with his arm. Your thought ?
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi Aokh
Thank you for the info! Looking forward to hear your friends' 溫州/福鼎閩南話!
Great to know 汓, even easier to write! However, I found that most Mandarin online dictionaries list it as "qiu2" (pinyin) and explanation 古同“泅”, so it has identical pronunciation and meaning as 泅. Both are pronounced as 'siu5' in Hokkien. I have no problem with any or both of them used.
Thank you for the info! Looking forward to hear your friends' 溫州/福鼎閩南話!
Great to know 汓, even easier to write! However, I found that most Mandarin online dictionaries list it as "qiu2" (pinyin) and explanation 古同“泅”, so it has identical pronunciation and meaning as 泅. Both are pronounced as 'siu5' in Hokkien. I have no problem with any or both of them used.
Re: Getting angry in Penang Hokkien
Hi Niuc and Aokh,
Thanks for the great discussion here. I've always wanted to know 汓/泅, so that's a great new acquisition for me.
Thanks for the great discussion here. I've always wanted to know 汓/泅, so that's a great new acquisition for me.