Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
SimL
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by SimL »

niuc wrote:Although theoretically praying to the moon (or sun etc) should be quite natural to Chinese folk religions, I never saw any, neither in Bagansiapiapi (one of the most Chinese town in Indonesia) nor in Singapore.
Indeed, my experience is identical to yours. After I wrote what I did, I thought about it last night, and realised that, in actual fact, I had never seen any Chinese actually explicitly worshipping the moon. The "hau-thiN-kong" (i.e. "worshipping Heaven") was very common when I was young, on one specific day of the 15-day Chinese New Year Festival (I forget which), but no moon stuff, as far as I know, on any day of the year (one would expect the 15th of the lunar month, of course). So, yes, I'm now also slightly puzzled by my relatives' remark (while, just like you, realizing that it doesn't at all seem contradictory with what we know about Chinese Folk Religion, for them to worship the moon). I will ask my father about this the next time we speak.

Thanks very much for sharing those 秘方 with us. I really love that sort of cultural fine detail! Also, I've always wondered what the "-ciu1" in "bak8-ciu1" is, so now I know :mrgreen:. Up to now, I had only known the pronunciation "chu1" for this character (e.g. when we were discussing "pearls" ("chu1") vs "beads" ("manek")).

Indeed, I agree with you 100% about the Chinese being practical, and doing all/any thing(s) to achieve the result that they want, even if (from a Western perspective) the different things they do might be contradictory. My father tells some stories about how, when he was young, if people (particularly the children) were sick, the elders would go to the temple to seek advice from the gods, see a sin-sEN (Chinese TCM practitioner), and see a Western physician!
niuc
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by niuc »

Hi Sim

My mom says that some did (or may be still) pray to the moon on Capgomeh (Lunar 15/1) and Mid-autumn (15/8). May be they pray to 月裡嫦娥 ‘guat8-li2-Siong7-Ngo`5’ (Chang-e).

Worshipping Heaven (孝/拜天公 hau3/pai3-Thi*1-Kong1) is on 9th day of Chinese New Year. It is only done by Hokkiens. It is said that during Yuan dynasty there was a year when Hokkiens couldn’t celebrate New Year due to war, a lot of them hiding in the sugar cane plantations. When it ceased on the 8th day, they celebrated the 9th day and gave thanks to Heaven with many offerings including 2 big sugar canes.

About 目珠, I got it from online dictionary. It does make sense, however I used to think it were some obscure hanji, e.g. imagining +. :mrgreen:
SimL
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by SimL »

Hi Niuc,
About 目珠, I got it from online dictionary.
It made total sense once you posted it here! Just because I was curious, I did look it up on the etymology page, and it confirmed that "chiu1" was a known pronunciation, besides "chu1".

Thanks for the additional information on worshipping the moon on 15/1 and 15/8 (lunar calendar).

As for the sugar-cane - my grandmother had one on each side of the main door every Chinese New Year. This was so normal that I never thought anything about it. It was only years later - as an adult past 40 - that I read that this was a uniquely Hokkien custom. That mades it into an extra special childhood memory for me :P. I suppose I must have read the explanation you gave, but I had forgotten the details (only remembering that it was uniquely Hokkien). Thanks for those details too.
aokh1979
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by aokh1979 »

目珠 is an interesting word. I grew up thinking it was 目睭 because that was what I saw from TV and Hokkien lyrics, too.

睭 means "deep", it's a rare character.

If you study the history of Manchuria, you will realise that 滿洲 was called 滿珠 long time ago. According to what I understand, 洲 and 珠 pronounced the same in the past. Manchurians did not get 珠 right when they started learning Chinese (which was possibly something similar to Hokkien). 滿珠 then later was read as 滿洲.

If that's true, it does make sense that 珠 is pronounced as ciu.

Another example just occurred to me. In Penang, we say ju-thor-kha as "mop the floor". However, there are significantly many people who pronounce jiu-thor-kha. Could it somehow be 2 variants that later got mixed up in each other ?
SimL
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by SimL »

aokh1979 wrote:Another example just occurred to me. In Penang, we say ju-thor-kha as "mop the floor". However, there are significantly many people who pronounce jiu-thor-kha. Could it somehow be 2 variants that later got mixed up in each other ?
Because of my limited Hokkien, I can't comment on "ju" vs "jiu", but I can confirm that I'm one of the people who say "jiu5" (in fact, I didn't know until now that some people say "ju"). It's a word I mentioned to Ah-bin when we met up in Australia. I suppose it started out meaning "to wipe with a damp or wet cloth" - e.g. "jiu5-toh4-i2" (= "wiping down the tables and chairs"), which (for example) occurs in some Chinese poem about being a good wife. However, in my usage (and probably those of lots of other Hokkien speakers, as with aokh), it now covers mopping the floor with a (Western) mop as well. In fact, if anything, this is probably the more primary meaning nowadays. The reason for the extension is obvious: originally, the Chinese would have "mopped" down a floor with a wet cloth, and when Western mops started being commonly used, the same action of "wet-cleaning" a floor got given the same name. Very similar to the "cang-ek" discussion we had earlier.
niuc
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by niuc »

Aoakh: Thanks, I didn't know that indeed existed (with different meaning). Also 滿珠 bit is interesting. About ju-thor-kha and jiu-thor-kha, does 'ju' has the same tone as 'jiu' in this case? In my variant, 'ju3' ('du3/lu3') is to brush or to rub, while 'jiu5'('diu5'/'liu5') is to wipe with a wet piece of cloth. So 'ju3-thor5-kha1' and 'jiu5-thor5-kha1' in my variant are two different activities. Do you know the hanji for both?

Sim: there is also 'jiu5-sin1-khu1' []身軀 i.e. to clean the body with a wet cloth, usually done when someone is too sick (or too late etc) to take a bath.

Talking about 'ju3', it seems that I always say 'sue2-chui3' 洗喙/嘴 (lit. to clean the mouth) for "to brush the teeth". How about you guys?
SimL
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by SimL »

niuc wrote:Sim: there is also 'jiu5-sin1-khu1' []身軀 i.e. to clean the body with a wet cloth, usually done when someone is too sick (or too late etc) to take a bath.
Nice. Thanks for this. Did we speak about it earlier, in connection with "cang-ek"? I believe in English, it's called "taking/having a sponge bath", and can apply to doing it for/to oneself as well.

niuc wrote:Talking about 'ju3', it seems that I always say 'sue2-chui3' 洗喙/嘴 (lit. to clean the mouth) for "to brush the teeth". How about you guys?
In my family, we always said "bin chu(i)-khi" (literally: "brush teeth"), but this could be a "loan-translation" from English "to brush one's teeth". Note that "chui-khi" is often elided to "chu-khi", in that phrase, and also in "chu(i)-khi thiaN3" (= "toothache").
Andrew

Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by Andrew »

SimL wrote:
niuc wrote:Talking about 'ju3', it seems that I always say 'sue2-chui3' 洗喙/嘴 (lit. to clean the mouth) for "to brush the teeth". How about you guys?
In my family, we always said "bin chu(i)-khi" (literally: "brush teeth"), but this could be a "loan-translation" from English "to brush one's teeth". Note that "chui-khi" is often elided to "chu-khi", in that phrase, and also in "chu(i)-khi thiaN3" (= "toothache").
We normally say se-chui-khi or se-chui
SimL
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by SimL »

Thanks Andrew!
niuc
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Re: Some Rhymes in POJ and Characters

Post by niuc »

SimL wrote:Nice. Thanks for this. Did we speak about it earlier, in connection with "cang-ek"? I believe in English, it's called "taking/having a sponge bath", and can apply to doing it for/to oneself as well.
Thanks for for the English term. Yes, it can be done to oneself or to someone else.
In my family, we always said "bin chu(i)-khi" (literally: "brush teeth"), but this could be a "loan-translation" from English "to brush one's teeth". Note that "chui-khi" is often elided to "chu-khi", in that phrase, and also in "chu(i)-khi thiaN3" (= "toothache").
Andrew's 'sue2-chui3-khi2' is also used but more seldom in my variant. But I hardly heard of 'bian2-chui3-khi2'. Toothbrush is 'khi2-bian2' 齒[] in my variant. I suppose it is 'khi2-bin2' in yours. Anyone know the TLJ for 'bian/bin2' (brush)?

Rather than 'chu3-khi2', it sometimes become 'chi3-khi2' in my variant. Also 'thau5-khak4' 頭殼 -> 'tha5-khak4' (sounds a bit childish).
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