liáu 了

[Ah-bin]

I remember Sim telling me that you can't use liáu with the adverbs "ba-lú (ka)" and "ta-ma" in Penang Hokkien.

The two examples I wrote down that you could not say were:

I ba-lú (ka) lâi liáu "He only just came"
I ta-ma lâi liáu "He just came now"

But I think there are two types of liáu

One (liáu1) implies change to a new situation or something that has happened already. It is put on the end of sentences or clauses.

Wá chai liáu "Now I know"
I tuíⁿ liáu "She's gone home"
Chiàⁿ kú liáu bô lâi chit-peng "I haven't been here for a long time"
It can also be used with adjectives

The other (liáu2) is suffixed only to verbs to give the meaning "finish"

Wá chiáh liáu âng-mô•-thn^g "I've finished eating the lollies" (that is NZ dialect, don't know what M'sians say)

Wá siá liáu wá ê lūn-bûn/thesis "I've finished writing my thesis" (some hope!)

If I change where the liáu is it changes the meaning of the sentences I think, to

Wá chiáh âng-mô•-thn^g liáu "Now I'm eating lollies" (I wasn't just before)
Wá siá liáu wá ê lūn-bûn/thesis "Now I'm writing my thesis" (I wasn't just before)

I suppose I can use liáu twice too
Wá chiáh liáu âng-mô•-thn^g liáu "I just finished eating the lollies"
Wá siá liáu wá ê lūn-bûn/thesis liáu "I've just finished writing my thesis"

Actually I don't know if these are totally acceptable, I am just going by my feeling and what i have heard. I may be influenced by what I did learn in Mandarin too. I think liáu2 is like a mixture of Mandarin 完 and the 了 that means past or completed action.

I'm guessing that the rule about not using liáu with ba-lu and ta-ma actually only applies to liáu1, and not to liáu2. Is it correct to say:

I ba-lú ka kóng liáu for "He's just finished talking"
or
Wá ba-lú khòaⁿ liáu há-lê hì "I've just finished watching the movie" ?

If these aren't right, how does one say them properly, I wonder? I'd be very grateful for some help.

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

Whew! Tough questions which I'll have to think about for some time!

When I first started learning Mandarin, I read about the two "le0" there and I said to myself "OMG, how confusing/weird - I don't think I'll ever get the hang of this. I'm glad the situation is so much simpler in Hokkien!". And that feeling has remained. I've never really worked out how to use the two Mandarin "le"s" (in particular the "double le"-construction (one after the verb and one at the end of the sentence)), and I still tend to think that Hokkien only has one "liau", which is used in simpler way (as a completive / change of state particle). Your examples will force me to examine my ideas a bit more. I really will have to hold off commenting on this for a while... I do look forward to reading what the other Forum members think though.

I ba-lú ka kóng liáu for "He's just finished talking"
or
Wá ba-lú khòaⁿ liáu há-lê hì "I've just finished watching the movie" ?

In the meantime, I can confirm that these are fine (because I don't have to do any grammatical analysis on them, I can just go by my native speaker intuition). So, sorry for originally giving you the wrong information that "liau" cannot be used with "ba-lu". Indeed, it cannot in the opening examples of your original posting, but it can in the ones the quote immediately above.

The other (liáu2) is suffixed only to verbs to give the meaning "finish"
Wá chiáh liáu âng-mô•-thn^g "I've finished eating the lollies" (that is NZ dialect, don't know what M'sians say)
Wá siá liáu wá ê lūn-bûn/thesis "I've finished writing my thesis" (some hope!)

In the second example sentence of the second type of "liau", did you mean for the liau to be directly after the verb or at the end of the sentence?

[Ah-bin]

So, sorry for originally giving you the wrong information that "liau" cannot be used with "ba-lu". Indeed, it cannot in the opening examples of your original posting, but it can in the ones the quote immediately above.

No apology necessary! I remember I had asked you about those two specifically. I hadn't thought that the others might be different until more recently. I'm always very grateful for your advice.

It may have been mentioned somewhere else, but this liau as a sentence ending is very common in Southeeast Asian Hokkien, but not in Amoy Hokkien or Taiwanese. They tend to use "a" for liau1 and reserve "liau" for the meaning of liau2.

Example sentence: They've all arrived now

In long lai a （亻因）攏來啊 (Amoy)

I-lang ka-liau lai liau 伊儂共了來了 (Penang - I think!)

I've just realised as I wrote this that the only word PGHK and AHK have in common is the lai!

In the second example sentence of the second type of "liau", did you mean for the liau to be directly after the verb or at the end of the sentence?

Directly after. I realise it's a bit of an odd sentence, perhaps it should be the first clause in a longer sentence where the next clause begins with to (then).

[aokh1979]

Just my 2 cents.

Ka-liau should be 徦了 if my research is right. Any opinion ?

徦: ka3 and it means "until"
了: liao2 and it means "end"

[Andrew]

Just my 2 cents.
徦: ka3 and it means "until"

Interesting - I always thought it was short for kau3. Did you get the character from the Quanzhou dictionary?

[Ah-bin]

Sorry everyone, I've got another liau question to deal with....

I was wondering, can you say:

伊讀報紙了 I thák pò-choá liáu

just by itself, or does it have to be connected to a second clause? If you can say it by itself, does it mean "He's reading the newspaper now" (and he wasn't just before)? I wrote it down in a long list of ways to change the aspects of verbs with modal verbs and so on, but when I got to this one, I found it hard to explain, because I wasn't sure myself. To me it sounds more like saying "after he read the newspaper"

I suppose if it has a second clause added like 出去食風 chhut khì chiáh-hong, then it would be:

伊讀報紙了to出去食風 I thák pò-choá liáu to chhut khì chiáh-hong

"After he read the newspaper he went out for a stroll."
(I know it doesn't really mean go for a stroll, I was sort of meaning like to go out to take in the air)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

What you surmised about 伊讀報紙了to出去食風 I thák pò-choá liáu to chhut khì chiáh-hong is more or less correct. For me, it would mean "After he read the newspaper he went out for a stroll". Except that I wouldn't use the "to(h)". The "to(h)" is completely grammatical, but gives is a slightly different meaning, something like "as soon as". This is because "to(h)" is one of those modal particles which suggest "I told you so", "hence", "mild surprise/emphasis", so, when one uses it, it suggests some sort of causal connection between the two parts of the sentence (= before and after the "to(h)").

In my usage, one can also have the first part of the sentence, without anything after. 伊讀報紙了 = "he's finished reading the paper". For the sense you ask about (= "He's reading the newspaper now" (and he wasn't just before)"), there is a very simple solution of using the "ti" progressive / continuous particle: 伊在讀報紙了 i ti thak po-cua liau.

So, to summarize:

1. 伊讀報紙了,(伊)出去食風 i thak po-cua liau , (i) chut khi ciah-hong = "after he finished reading the paper, he went out"

2. 伊讀報紙了,(伊)to出去食風 i thak po-cua liau, (i) to chut khi ciah-hong = "as soon as he finished reading the paper, he went out"

3. 伊讀報紙了 i thak po-cua liau = "he's finished reading the paper"

3a. 伊讀報紙了, so 汝會sai去問伊看伊be出去食風無 = i thak po-cua liau, so lu e sai khi mui i khuaN i be chut-khi ciah-hong bo = "he's finished reading the paper, so you can go and ask him if he wants to go out"

4. 伊在讀報紙了 i ti thak po-cua liau = "he's reading the paper now" (he wasn't just before)

4a. 伊在讀報紙了, so 伊較多是mai出去食風 = i ti thak po-cua liau, so i kha-ce si mai chut-khi ciah-hong = "he's reading the paper now, so he probably won't want to go out" or "he's started reading the paper now, so he probably won't want to go out".

---

Notes:
#) I'm using borrowed English "so" as the most natural word I would use in this context.
#) I've forgotten how to write "sai2", as in "e7 sai2" = "can do", "permitted to", and "mai3" (= "to not want to") in characters.
#) I'm using a paraphrase "較多是" kha-ce si to render "probably". I'm not sure if 較 and 多 are the right characters either - it's the comparative particle "kha", and "ce" = "many".

[niuc]

伊讀報紙了 I thák pò-choá liáu

In my variant, that sentence by itself means "he's finished reading the paper" (same as what Sim wrote). However, we tend to pronounce 'liau2' as 'a0' ('a' with neutral tone).

伊讀報紙了to出去食風 I thák pò-choá liáu to chhut khì chiáh-hong

'to7' ('tio7') in the sentence is equivalent to 就 in Mandarin. In fact we can use 'ciu7' to replace 'to7'.

[Ah-bin]

Wow, you two are fast! Thanks for the replies.

Actually I had some idea that the sentence would be "naked" without the "to", but now I see that I didn't need it after all. Now with the ti (toa-ti is also possible?) it makes perfect sense. I think I have all the permutations of a verb now.

In my variant, that sentence by itself means "he's finished reading the paper" (same as what Sim wrote). However, we tend to pronounce 'liau2' as 'a0' ('a' with neutral tone).

to7' ('tio7') in the sentence is equivalent to 就 in Mandarin. In fact we can use 'ciu7' to replace 'to7'.

Niuc, this is very interesting as these two features are what I've always associated with Taiwanese. I also thought the final "liau" was a feature of all varieties of Southeast Asian Hokkien, but it seems I was wrong.

[hohomi]

Sorry everyone, I've got another liau question to deal with....

I was wondering, can you say:

伊讀報紙了 I thák pò-choá liáu

just by itself, or does it have to be connected to a second clause? If you can say it by itself, does it mean "He's reading the newspaper now" (and he wasn't just before)? I wrote it down in a long list of ways to change the aspects of verbs with modal verbs and so on, but when I got to this one, I found it hard to explain, because I wasn't sure myself. To me it sounds more like saying "after he read the newspaper"

I suppose if it has a second clause added like 出去食風 chhut khì chiáh-hong, then it would be:

伊讀報紙了to出去食風 I thák pò-choá liáu to chhut khì chiáh-hong

"After he read the newspaper he went out for a stroll."
(I know it doesn't really mean go for a stroll, I was sort of meaning like to go out to take in the air)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I would add "loo" or "a" in the end of the sentence and rearrange the word order.
報紙伊讀了--loo
報紙伊讀了--a.
or
伊將報紙讀了