Does anyone know how to say this 龍 in Hokkien????
Sometime I heard as Ling but Heard as Lung in Taiwan.
which one is right????
龍????
Re: 龍????
The vernacular reading of 龍 is "ling"; the literary reading is "liong".
"lung" is Mandarin.
"lung" is Mandarin.
Re: 龍????
In Penang Hokkien "leng5" (where tone5 has approximately the same tone-contour as Mandarin tone2).
In many varieties of Hokkien (Amoy?) it is "liəng5". This is a standard correspondence in sound: an "-iəng" where Penang Hokkien has "-eng".
BTW: If you're unfamiliar with IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet), "ə" is the unstressed middle vowel, like the "e" in "bitter" (for varieties of English which don't pronounce "-r"), or like the first syllable in English "catastrophe" (for those who say the first syllable in a way which doesn't rhyme with "cat", sort of "ketastrofi").
In many varieties of Hokkien (Amoy?) it is "liəng5". This is a standard correspondence in sound: an "-iəng" where Penang Hokkien has "-eng".
BTW: If you're unfamiliar with IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet), "ə" is the unstressed middle vowel, like the "e" in "bitter" (for varieties of English which don't pronounce "-r"), or like the first syllable in English "catastrophe" (for those who say the first syllable in a way which doesn't rhyme with "cat", sort of "ketastrofi").
Re: 龍????
"leng5" must be the result of Teochew influence.SimL wrote:In Penang Hokkien "leng5" (where tone5 has approximately the same tone-contour as Mandarin tone2).
In many varieties of Hokkien (Amoy?) it is "liəng5". This is a standard correspondence in sound: an "-iəng" where Penang Hokkien has "-eng".
BTW: If you're unfamiliar with IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet), "ə" is the unstressed middle vowel, like the "e" in "bitter" (for varieties of English which don't pronounce "-r"), or like the first syllable in English "catastrophe" (for those who say the first syllable in a way which doesn't rhyme with "cat", sort of "ketastrofi").
Re: 龍????
We say "leng1" (= "milk"), "keng2" (= "choose"), "seng3" (= "indulge/spoil a child"), "heng5" (= "return, give back (money, books, etc)", "eng5" (= "easy, free"). Would this be Teochew influence too? My non-Penang Hokkien maternal relatives say "kiəng2", "siəng3", "hiəng5", "iəng5".hohomi wrote:"leng5" must be the result of Teochew influence.
Re: 龍????
Hi Sim & Hohomi
Personally I don't think it is Teochew influence, i.e. those Hokkien words were "king, sing, hing" then due to the influence became "keng, seng, heng" in Penang variant. Teochew itself is a group of variants within Minnan continuum, so it is hardly surprising that some Hokkien variants share certain things with Teochew. Some told me that Zhao'An 詔安 variant in Zhangzhou prefecture was closer to Teochew rather than Hokkien. Is it still the case today?
Personally I don't think it is Teochew influence, i.e. those Hokkien words were "king, sing, hing" then due to the influence became "keng, seng, heng" in Penang variant. Teochew itself is a group of variants within Minnan continuum, so it is hardly surprising that some Hokkien variants share certain things with Teochew. Some told me that Zhao'An 詔安 variant in Zhangzhou prefecture was closer to Teochew rather than Hokkien. Is it still the case today?
Re: 龍????
This is what I told a good friend from Shantou (Swatow):
Minnan split into Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu few hundreds of years ago. People from Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu left China, came to Penang and the 2 languages met up in 1 city again. You will notice Penang Hokkien is actually a colourful mixture of both Tsiang Tsiu (including Tsuan Tsiu) and Tio Tsiu (including Suann Thau). Isn't it amazing that the separated variants, at some point, are merging into one again here ?
Silly thought. Ha.
Minnan split into Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu few hundreds of years ago. People from Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu left China, came to Penang and the 2 languages met up in 1 city again. You will notice Penang Hokkien is actually a colourful mixture of both Tsiang Tsiu (including Tsuan Tsiu) and Tio Tsiu (including Suann Thau). Isn't it amazing that the separated variants, at some point, are merging into one again here ?
Silly thought. Ha.
Re: 龍????
What's the history for the split ? I heard of 2 versions.aokh1979 wrote:This is what I told a good friend from Shantou (Swatow):
Minnan split into Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu few hundreds of years ago. People from Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu left China, came to Penang and the 2 languages met up in 1 city again. You will notice Penang Hokkien is actually a colourful mixture of both Tsiang Tsiu (including Tsuan Tsiu) and Tio Tsiu (including Suann Thau). Isn't it amazing that the separated variants, at some point, are merging into one again here ?
Silly thought. Ha.
1. Fujian governor gave ChaoShan region to Guangdong province ie. the boundary is redefined.
2. Tio Ciu people migrated from Fujian province into Guangdong province.
Is Tio Ciu closer to Ciang Ciu or Cuan Ciu in terms of speech ?
Re: 龍????
It's going to be Tsiang Tsiu. I would say.
Tsuan Tsiu is on the north. Tsiang Tsiu at the middle, cross the border towards south, it will be Tio Tsiu. If I understand correctly, 1st batch of Han people went from Tiong Guan (Zhong Yuan) to Tsuan Tsiu, inter-marriage with many local ethnic groups. Then the 2nd batch went to Tsiang Tsiu.
There's a disturbing saying in Penang, from old generation, that a Tsiang Tsiu father would want his "pure" Han daughter marry a Tio Tsiu guy rather than Tsuan Tsiu guy, because Tsuan Tsiu people are "mixed". No offence, I am just telling what I hear from old people here. That is why Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu live together very well in Penang, although we do have many Tsuan Tsiu descendants.
I am not sure about other cities in Malaysia, it is indeed amazing that in Penang:
Tsiang Tsiu is spoken, and 2 is pronounced noo
Tio Tsiu is also spoken, and 2 is pronouned no
I grew up in Hai Lam (Hainanese) speaking district in Tanjung Bungah, and 2 is pronouced no, too !
The 3 variants (major ones, not sure about others) that read 2 as noo / no instead of n'ng amazingly came to the same island and live together......
Tsuan Tsiu is on the north. Tsiang Tsiu at the middle, cross the border towards south, it will be Tio Tsiu. If I understand correctly, 1st batch of Han people went from Tiong Guan (Zhong Yuan) to Tsuan Tsiu, inter-marriage with many local ethnic groups. Then the 2nd batch went to Tsiang Tsiu.
There's a disturbing saying in Penang, from old generation, that a Tsiang Tsiu father would want his "pure" Han daughter marry a Tio Tsiu guy rather than Tsuan Tsiu guy, because Tsuan Tsiu people are "mixed". No offence, I am just telling what I hear from old people here. That is why Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu live together very well in Penang, although we do have many Tsuan Tsiu descendants.
I am not sure about other cities in Malaysia, it is indeed amazing that in Penang:
Tsiang Tsiu is spoken, and 2 is pronounced noo
Tio Tsiu is also spoken, and 2 is pronouned no
I grew up in Hai Lam (Hainanese) speaking district in Tanjung Bungah, and 2 is pronouced no, too !
The 3 variants (major ones, not sure about others) that read 2 as noo / no instead of n'ng amazingly came to the same island and live together......
Re: 龍????
I think there's some prejudice here. If I understand correctly from China history. The only city and capital in the Min Kingdom was Hok Ciu. There weren't many people living there 2000 years ago so how could there be many cities ?aokh1979 wrote:It's going to be Tsiang Tsiu. I would say.
Tsuan Tsiu is on the north. Tsiang Tsiu at the middle, cross the border towards south, it will be Tio Tsiu. If I understand correctly, 1st batch of Han people went from Tiong Guan (Zhong Yuan) to Tsuan Tsiu, inter-marriage with many local ethnic groups. Then the 2nd batch went to Tsiang Tsiu.
That's why Hok Ciu contains a lot of Minyue words.
Cuan Ciu city was only formed when the han chinese migrated there from north china.