Different variants of minnan

[SimL]

...

If we switch on our TV, even programmes from Taiwan, people only remember names in Mandarin. None of the shows actually call someone's name in Hokkien. That does not happen to Cantonese.

Spot on! I always said similar things before in this forum. Cantonese have a strong linguistic identity and they are really proud of it, while many Hokkiens are busy adoring Mandarin and ashamed of their own "dialect". Surely there are still many Hokkiens who are proud (in possitive sense) and actively use Hokkien, yet it is indeed starlting to see how pale we are compared to Cantonese in this aspect.

Yes. I cannot express how sad (and shocked!) I was when I learnt (about 5-6 years ago now, I think) that people in Malaysia were naming their children with Mandarin names (i.e. Mandarin version, spelled in pinyin on their birth certificates), and that only the surname retains its Hokkien form. My brother's little daughter was born and grew up in Australia, and her mother is Anglo-Australian. My brother left Malaysia when he was 4 or 5, so his own Hokkien is very limited. Given these circumstances, there was no possibility that their daughter would ever speak Hokkien. Nevertheless, my brother took the trouble to: 1) give her a Hokkien personal name, which appears on her birth certificate, and 2) teach her to count and identify parts of the body in Hokkien (= the game where the parents say "hi7 a", and the child points to his/her ear, "chui3", and the child points to his/her mouth, etc). If my brother, under such disadvantageous circumstances, can have this little bit of "Hokkien pride", it's saddening to see that Hokkiens in Malaysia don't bother.

...

2 weeks ago, I heard a news when I travelled in a bus, in Xiamen. Every public service officer below 50 years old is restricted from speaking Hokkien. Mandarin must be the only language used at government departments.

This is sad but hardly a surprise. PRC is such a hypocrite in "promoting" Minnan cultural link with Taiwan but on the other hand doing such thing.

Yes. Ah-bin posted a link on this Forum to (an English translation even of) the legislation which covers the use of dialect in the PRC. Basically it boiled down to (I'm paraphrasing and putting it a bit sarcastically): "Only for genuinely traditional Hokkien puppet shows, or if you're speaking to a 88 year-old peasant who can't speak anything else".

This too I found very saddening. On the other hand (to be fair to the PRC government), it's exactly what any government does, when that government decides to promote a particular variant or form as the standard. It happened for German and Dutch, and it continues to happen to this day. [= When a spelling reform is promulgated (in the 1990's in both Germany and the Netherlands), then the Ministry of Education in both countries mandated that all educational institutions (which of course includes the teachers themselves) will use the new standard (or are obliged to move completely over to the new standard in <x> years).] The same applied to public servants. The PRC has decided that Mandarin is to be the standard language (in itself not a bad idea), and it is only taking the expected same steps to enforce this decision.

[hohomi]

Only for genuinely traditional Hokkien puppet shows, or if you're speaking to a 88 year-old peasant who can't speak anything else.

That is so untrue.

When I was very young, primary schools in Quanzhou city forbid the students to speak Hokkien at school. That was because nearly every student spoke Hokkien at home. They needed to practise their Mandarin.
At that time(in the 1990s), Mandarin was definitely the weaker language compared to Hokkien - it was only used at schools.

I couldn't speak Mandarin properly before I went to primary school.

They allowed us to speak Hokkien in middle schools. Because, we had been practising speaking Mandarin for six years before attending middle school.

[niuc]

Ankhue is closer to 泉州府城腔.
Tsinkang(晋江) has both variants.
Uann-hai(安海)、Tang-tsioh(东石) are 泉州府城腔. 青阳(tshing-iong) is 泉州海口腔.

Thanks for the info. It seems that most variants are closer to 泉州府城腔.

An interesting story. (The story teller speaks a Jinjiang version of 泉州府城腔 that is almost identical to the accent of Quanzhou city)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC_i5kJ25f4

Thanks, the story indeed is interesting and creative.
Roughly I can understand about 90%. I find the tones are quite different from Tang-ua*, so I have to pay close attention. Although having some different vowels, I find E-mng variant much easier to understand due to similar tones. Btw, what is 'ua ping' in the clip? It sounds like interjection "wah piang" in Singlish

[xng]

hohomi

tell me whether this is correct ?

思 (意思) Quanzhou Sɯ, xiamen Su, Zhangzhou Si

遠 Quanzhou Hŋ, xiamen Hŋ, Zhangzhou Hui

[hohomi]

what is 'ua ping' in the clip? It sounds like interjection "wah piang" in Singlish

I've no idea about "wah piang" in Singlish.
"gua-ping" is an interjection used to show that you are surprised. Sometimes I hear people say "gua-piang".

hohomi
tell me whether this is correct ?
思 (意思) Quanzhou Sɯ, xiamen Su, Zhangzhou Si
遠 Quanzhou Hŋ, xiamen Hŋ, Zhangzhou Hui

You're right. 遠(far) is huīⁿ (nasal) in Zhangzhou.

[xng]

what is 'ua ping' in the clip? It sounds like interjection "wah piang" in Singlish

I've no idea about "wah piang" in Singlish.
"gua-ping" is an interjection used to show that you are surprised. Sometimes I hear people say "gua-piang".

Wah Piang is the corrupted version of Gua Piang which is another corrupted version of Gua Ping ?

Is below correct ?

思 (意思) Quanzhou Sɯ, xiamen Su, Zhangzhou Si

[aokh1979]

It's not that they are ashamed of their 'dialect', it is the lack of standard that is hindering the progress of the language.

...Since they are living in Xiamen, having the same Hokkien variant as taught in some schools in their own very city, what kind of standard do they still waiting for? ...

I agree with niuc. We're Hokkien speakers, I don't think we're actually talking about any outsider or newcomer in this case. I was merely pointing out that both husband and wife from Xiamen, speak the same Xiamen variant, prefer to converse with their child entirely in Mandarin, without any single word in Hokkien. This is what I see today in Xiamen. And believe me, their Mandarin is not considered very good. Some of them even have problem pronouncing the words begin with F and N. They prefer a broken Mandarin than a good Xiamen variant of Hokkien. Why don't they leave Mandarin to those who speak it well to teach their child ? Like teachers, maybe ?

Sorry if I sound negative and nasty. I am just very upset with what's happening to Hokkien now.

Seriously, what kind of standard are we / those people still waiting for ? Xiamen has been considered the STANDARD for a long time, even in Ai FM, Malaysia, Xiamen variant is used for Hokkien news reading. How many % of "variances" do we actually see from Tsiang Tsiu, Tsuan Tsiu and Amoy variants ? I don't believe that speakers of those variants cannot hold a conversation. I witnessed myself before, a Tsuan Tsiu shopkeeper talking to a Swatow customer, both spoke their own variant. I understood Tsuan Tsiu variant, I could grab about 60% of the Tio Tsiu variant from their conversation. They could do it for an hour bargaining on prices. If I live in Penang, then Penang Hokkien will be the standard.

I have heard a Hong Kong friend talking to her old neighbour. She spoke perfect and modern Hong Kong variant but the granny spoke Toi-San variant. I did not see any problem. My cousin never went to Chinese school, he knew nothing about Chinese characters but he spoke perfect Penang variant, then he started going to college talking to new friends in broken Mandarin. He came back to Penang last month and I was indeed very surprised, that he spoke Mandarin exactly like any Chinese-educated high school student, although he still knew not much about Chinese characters. That's the "standard", we achieve "standard" from practical use of the language.

Seriously, most Malaysians or Singaporeans don't speak "standard" Mandarin, but we're exposed to a new Mandarin world, everyone has to speak - and "variants" will start to shrink, a "standard" will then be achieved. Either you adopt mine, or I adopt yours. Frankly, we don't go to school for Hokkien anymore, we're not going to sit down and learn "standard" from anyone, we just need to SPEAK it proudly and loudly, we will watch Hua Hee Dai, and we will pick up some vocabulary from Taiwan, and we may even use them in daily conversation very naturally. The "standard" is forming without us even knowing it.

[xng]

You guys are talking about 'intelligibility' when you already know the differences and been interacting for years.

That is not the case for new guys/children/foreigners who had first contact with the other variants. When I had first contact with the other variants, I only had limited intelligibility. words like Cit ma, Tak ma, No dumbfounded me.

I can also say understanding cantonese is a cinch because I have contact with it for many years or HK people understanding mandarin. The fact is, new people do have trouble understanding the different variants.

[aokh1979]

True. I don't refer to outsider or newcomer in my statement. I am just very upset that people with their own variant (at least a consistent one) even refuse to speak to their children in Hokkien. It's just saddening.

Personally, I think for outsider or newcomer can start off with Taiwan. Taiwan variant (although it's a mixture, too) is the only one I can see, supported by government. At least there's online dictionary, there's input method, there's a standard phonetic system, there's institution, there's famous TV series or other entertainment elements to help out. I can understand Taiwanese better even though I spent 7 years in Xiamen. Of course, I realised how much I owe it to Hokkien only some 3 years ago. I hope it's not too late for us to discuss, discover and develop Hokkien from here now.

[SimL]

Only for genuinely traditional Hokkien puppet shows, or if you're speaking to a 88 year-old peasant who can't speak anything else.

That is so untrue.

When I was very young, primary schools in Quanzhou city forbid the students to speak Hokkien at school. That was because nearly every student spoke Hokkien at home. They needed to practise their Mandarin.
At that time(in the 1990s), Mandarin was definitely the weaker language compared to Hokkien - it was only used at schools.

I couldn't speak Mandarin properly before I went to primary school.

They allowed us to speak Hokkien in middle schools. Because, we had been practising speaking Mandarin for six years before attending middle school.

Hi hohomi,

Thanks for sharing that with us. It is a relief for me to hear from you (as I've said before) that Hokkien is a lot more alive (and a lot less repressed) than some of us may think.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that that was what the situation was, in Fujian (or in any other part of non-Mandarin speaking PRC). I was only paraphrasing the translation of the legislation which Ah-bin had posted here.