Different variants of minnan

[Andrew]

Are you guys talking about the same rime?

雞細買 or 過稅未？

[hohomi]

Are you guys talking about the same rime?
雞細買 or 過稅未？

http://blog.yam.com/joshua_yap/article/20001749

[xng]

I watched a lot of taiwanese shows and hear a lot of taiwanese songs. Most (if not all) say Ke, Se, Be and NOT Kue, Sue, Bue.

Can you find me one or two songs with only the variant with "ke","se","se"?

It took me almost an hour to search in youtube.

李聖傑 叫阮的名 ( I choose him because he has a very clear voice)

當初細漢 Tong Co Se Han

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-jieoRksWc

蔡小虎-買醉的人

等出賣 - Tang Cut Be
過去的人 - Kue Ki E Lang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osvt2nhx ... re=related

[xng]

Are you guys talking about the same rime?

雞細買 or 過稅未？

In zhangzhou, it is Ke, Se, Be and Kue, Sue, Bue

In quanzhou, it is Kue, Sue, Bue and Kə, ?, Bə

[hohomi]

蔡小虎-買醉的人
等出賣 - Tang Cut Be
過去的人 - Kue Ki E Lang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osvt2nhx ... re=related

Taipei variant is chosen at the following places:
眼前分袜(bue)清
风尘作(tsue)伴
作(tsue)伤心梦
They should be "be","tso","tso" in the Tainan variant.

李聖傑 叫阮的名 ( I choose him because he has a very clear voice)
當初細漢 Tong Co Se Han
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-jieoRksWc

The original version is sung by 巫啟賢. In that version, the Taipei variant is chosen at all places where a choice is needed to be made.
细漢(sue) 袂(bue)赴 做(tsue)伴
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7QsAadOO3c

True. 李聖傑's version is closer to Tainan variant.
However, in 李聖傑's version, 性(siN)命 is of Taipei variant because in Tainan variant it is 性(seN)命.

[xng]

True. 李聖傑's version is closer to Tainan variant.
However, in 李聖傑's version, 性(siN)命 is of Taipei variant because in Tainan variant it is 性(seN)命.

巫啟賢 is a southern malaysian chinese. Southern malaysia and singapore use the Cuan Ciu dialect. So he speak Sue instead of Se. Whereas, Northern malaysia ie.penang say Se which is based on Ciang Ciu dialect.


However, 李聖傑 is a true taiwanese, so his dialect represent the average taiwanese.


"性(siN)命 is of Taipei variant because in Tainan variant it is 性(seN)命"

Taiwanese is a true mixture between Cuanciu and Ciangciu.

I have not heard of Kue, Sue, Bue in taiwanese films at all. Whereas I have heard of both 性(seN) and 性(siN)命 in taiwanese films.

[hohomi]

Taiwanese is a true mixture between Cuanciu and Ciangciu.

I am not trying to prove that Taiwanese is a mixture of QZ and ZZ.
I am saying that Taiwanese has many variants in itself. And, you can encounter those variants in real life as well as on TV, in films or in pop songs.

In this song, 李聖傑 uses "bue" for 袂.
李聖傑＊最痛的感受
http://mymedia.yam.com/m/2983703
In your previous example, he uses "be" for 袂.

I have not heard of Kue, Sue, Bue in taiwanese films at all.

Either you haven't watched recent Taiwanese films yet or you didn't pay enough attention on this issue. See 海角七號 and 艋舺.

[aokh1979]

No offence, this is just what I think. Do correct me if I understand our discussion wrongly.

Try listen to below songs and let me know if I took your messages wrong. I just pointed 1 or 2 characters from the songs, based on my memory.

鳳飛飛 － 心肝寶貝 (she sings 月 as Gueh)
許景淳 － 天頂的月娘 (she sings 月 as Geh)
游鴻明 － 無情的情批 (he sings 批 as Phue, 濟 "many" as Tsue)
黃品源 － 白鷺鷥 (he sings 濟 "many" as Tse)
蕭煌奇 － 袜做憨人 (he sings 濟 "many" as Tse in 1st part then Tsue in 2nd, 張 as Tionn but 想 as Siunn)

Many more, if I search in my music library.

It took an hour to find 2 songs with less than 5 characters that represent "variants" in Tsiang Tsiu and Tsuan Tsiu, are we actually spending this amount of time to claim how huge the differences are ? I am seriously thinking if we love Hokkien, if we want Hokkien to last longer, we should help anyone who's "confused" in Hokkien variants, tell them this is normal, tell them there's a pattern to follow and in most places it is actually a mixture. Tell them the variants are like reading "chAnce", "cAn't", "Evolution", "banAna", "pAtriot", "bOdy", "EIther", "antI-virus", etc in British or American English.

No language in the world is completely clear and straightforward, every language has exceptions. English, French, Mandarin, whichever is widely spoken across the globe is as confusing as Hokkien. Why do we even try to maximise the variance ? If an outsider's about to give up for the "differences" we magnify here, I am sorry, he's not a good learner and I assure you he will fail in any new language he learns. No offence, but I need someone to enlighten me if I mistook the whole discussion. This is just my thought.

[hohomi]

I totally agree with you. As I said before, the differences between Xiamen(Taipei) and Tainan are very small. At least, it is smaller than the differences between XM and QZ or between XM and ZZ.

we should help anyone who's "confused" in Hokkien variants, tell them this is normal, tell them there's a pattern to follow and in most places it is actually a mixture.

Xiamen(Taipei) variant and Tainan variant are like British accent and American accent in Hokkien.
For most Taiwanese, his/her accent is actually a mixture of Taipei and Tainan.

[xng]

English has a standard that is taught internationally, regardless of how others mispronounced the words or other native english subdialects.

So has Mandarin which has many variants before, but now we have a standard mandarin where everyone can learn the standard sounds regardless of how other native mandarin speak. Same goes for cantonese which has lots of variants.

I think taiwanese is closest to a standard because they incorporate elements from both quanzhou and zhangzhou, thus making both groups happy. If a newcomer wants to learn minnan, the teacher can't tell them you can pronounce this as Sue or Se or ? (3 variants). No english or mandarin teachers will teach all the variants.

To summarise, taiwanese incorporate the following in most taiwanese films. (Note: most but not all)

Quanzhou: Neng, Seng, Teng 卵痠斷

Zhangzhou: Se, Be 細賣

Zhangzhou: Hue, Kue 火, 過


These are the main differences between Quanzhou and Zhangzhou. let's move to a standard, guys....