Different variants of minnan

[xng]

With the above standards, I think we can also pull back our long lost brothers ie. Tiociu and Putian.

For putian, I know that they pronounce the same as

Quanzhou: 卵痠斷 Neng, (Sui), Teng (only difference is Sui)

Zhangzhou: Se, Be 細賣

Zhangzhou: Hue, Kue 火, 過

Hohomi, What about Teociu, how do they pronounce it ?

[hohomi]

With the above standards, I think we can also pull back our long lost brothers ie. Tiociu and Putian.

You're too optimistic. Hokkien and Teochew are different not only in pronunciation of characters, but also in vocabulary and grammar, not to mention Putian, which cannot be counted as a branch of Southern Min.

The main difference between Quanzhou and Zhangzhou is the pronunciation of some characters and tone systems. They are the same in respect of grammar. And, I suppose at least 85% of their vocabularies are the same.

[xng]

You're too optimistic. Hokkien and Teochew are different not only in pronunciation of characters, but also in vocabulary and grammar, not to mention Putian, which cannot be counted as a branch of Southern Min.

The main difference between Quanzhou and Zhangzhou is the pronunciation of some characters and tone systems. They are the same in respect of grammar. And, I suppose at least 85% of their vocabularies are the same.

It's partly due to the lack of standard that Minnan keep on splitting apart into more and more variants. I can tell you, there will be lesser and lesser variants of cantonese/mandarin after a few more generations as the younger generations will discard their version in favor of the standard cantonese/mandarin as it is more practical.

Putian hua was very similar if not the same as Quanzhou hua before the Song dynasty when they splitted apart into a different prefecture. Putian hua received influences from Fuzhou hua which corrupted the original minnan grammar/vocabulary just as Teochew was corrupted by cantonese influence.

Please see examples below.

[xng]

Look at the similarity here between hing hua/putian and xiamen.

http://globalrecordings.net/program/C00461

各位同胞,我現在佮你講一個新的故事就是'cain'佮伊的阿弟'abel'. (ignoring the chinese pronounciation for cain and abel)

hing hua: kok ui tang pau. ngua hien cai ka li kong set kay sin ay koh lu cio si 'cain' ka ii ay ah li 'abel'.
xiamen: kok ui tang pau, gua hien cai ka li kong cit kay sin ay koh su cio si 'cain' ka ii ay sio ti 'abel'.


有一個家庭, 有兩個兄弟囝,大兄叫'cain'阿弟叫'abel'.

hing hua: uh set kay ka leng, uh neng kay/ay hia li ah, tua hia kio 'cain', ah li kio 'abel'.
xiamen: uh cit kay ka ting, uh neng kay hia ti ah, tua hia kio 'cain', sio ti kio 'abel'.

[xng]

But basically, there are uniform differences between Putian hua and Quanzhou just like the others.

病生平

Quanzhou -Pinn, Sinn, Pinn

Zhangzhou - Penn, Senn, Penn

Putian - Pann, Sann, Pann


細賣

Quanzhou - Sue, Bue

Zhangzhou, Putian - Se, Be

火過

Quanzhou - Hə, Kə

Zhangzhou, Putian - Hue, Kue


You said that there is no problem listening to zhangzhou even though you're quanzhou, but you have trouble listening to Putian ?

That's because you have more exposure to zhangzhou people for longer time, if you have the same exposure to Putian, you will understand 70-80% of it.

[hohomi]

You said that there is no problem listening to zhangzhou even though you're quanzhou, but you have trouble listening to Putian ?
That's because you have more exposure to zhangzhou people for longer time, if you have the same exposure to Putian, you will understand 70-80% of it.

There is a fundamental difference. Putian like Fuzhou has a feature called 聲母類化(sorry I don't know how to translate into English). So, you'll always think you are about to understand Putian. But, you stay at that point forever. There is a reason that we categorize Quanzhou and Zhangzhou into the same branch of Southern Min. Hinghua is definitely not Southern Min.

[niuc]

English has a standard that is taught internationally, regardless of how others mispronounced the words or other native english subdialects.

Xng, which standard? UK or US?

Hokkien and Teochew are different not only in pronunciation of characters, but also in vocabulary and grammar, not to mention Putian, which cannot be counted as a branch of Southern Min.

Hohomi, I agree with you. Although Teochew and Hokkien are both Minnan, their differences are obviously much larger than variations within each group. Most if not all linguists place Putian as a separate branch of Min (not Minnan), so I concur with you too.

[aokh1979]

English has a standard that is taught internationally, regardless of how others mispronounced the words or other native english subdialects.

I am not a linguist in any language. Do you mean only 1 set of spelling, 1 set of pronunciation, 1 set of usage of English is taught internationally ? Does that mean if you're a very good speaker in English from the 3 countries, you should sound exactly the same ? Is that true ? Why do we see American English and British English, even Australian English clearly distinguished by IPA ? Are we seeing variances between QZ and ZZ bigger than differences between American and British ?

Hokkien language is a reflection of culture. Culture is created by human, is a product of nature through life experiences. How can we actually force culture to be "standardised" ? It's like killing Traditional Chinese and moving towards Simplified Chinese, if we think ONE standard is needed. Cantonese is not forced to become what we hear from Hong Kong today, but it was formed very naturally when people from all over Guangdong started to live in one same city.

Why was there even 漳泉 mixture in Taiwan and Penang ? Because we live together, each of us speak our own variant and one day, we realise we understand the others, we start to incorporate words from other variants. What I seriously think we should do, is speak our own variant, learn to respect other variants, learn to absorb other variants, learn to make our thoughts understood by other speakers. We're not talking about 2 completely different languages, why do we try to standardise them by purpose ? I want Hokkien to live longer, I am not going to kill any variant. Or I will be like 董教總 in Malaysia that forces all Chinese schools to speak only Mandarin, no dialects because they think Mandarin is the standard of all Chinese languages.

[xng]

English has a standard that is taught internationally, regardless of how others mispronounced the words or other native english subdialects.

Xng, which standard? UK or US?

In most countries, it is UK. In Singapore , malaysia, Hong Kong, Australia it is UK English.

We are talking about standard within a country. Were you ever taught american english (besides UK english) in Singapore schools ?

[xng]

There is a fundamental difference. Putian like Fuzhou has a feature called 聲母類化(sorry I don't know how to translate into English). So, you'll always think you are about to understand Putian. But, you stay at that point forever. There is a reason that we categorize Quanzhou and Zhangzhou into the same branch of Southern Min. Hinghua is definitely not Southern Min.

You don't seem to understand what I said, Putian was originally minnan a few hundred years ago, but due to Fuzhou influence, it has moved away from its original tongue. Just as Hainanese is also moving further apart, and hainanese is not considered minnan anymore.

I understand 聲母類化, basically if we understand this feature , it will be even easier to understand putian.
Essentially, the 'T' in minnan becomes 'L' in putian when it becomes the second word.

eg. 阿弟(brother) is Ah Li instead of Ah Ti but when 弟is pronounced as standalone, it is Ti.

If not for this feature, I think understanding Putian would be much easier for minnan speakers as many of the pronounciation are similar to zhangzhou and quanzhou dialect. Putian is a mixture of quanzhou and zhangzhou which is similar to taiwanese but have more variances than taiwanese.

Anyway, Putian was originally part of Quanzhou prefecture before the song dynasty, and should be the same or very similar dialect to Quanzhou dialect a few hundred years ago.