Different variants of minnan

[niuc]

Hi Sim

Although I am not a Taiwanese, if I am allowed to comment, I think 'ua2' Taiwanese is not directly related to 'ua2' in Penang Hokkien, but more to be a result of Mandarin influence (no 'g' in Mandarin). Sorry if i am being too kaypoh

[SimL]

Hi niuc,

Of course you should comment, even if you're not Taiwanese ! Actually, I think your comment is quite valuable. So, Penang Hokkien "wa" is probably from Teochew, independent of any Taiwanese variant, and Taiwanese "wa" is probably influenced by Mandarin "wo". Of course, without doing detailed research (both geographical and historical), we can't know for certain, but the theory on the face of it is quite plausible.

PS. On an unrelated matter, I had the very strange experience of being complimented by the Taiwanese that my Hokkien was very elevated and formal! This is because I used the word "tam-poh" for "a bit". They all said it sounded very "deep" to them, and that they normally say "sio-khua" .

[Ah-bin]

I'll just add that I was told the same thing about my "pretend Taiwanese" (which is now basically just Penang Hokkien mius Malay plus all the words I remember as Taiwanese added in) last week. That it was the old fashioned way that grandparents spoke - also because of tam-poh 淡薄 but also because of the puiN 飯. I took this as good news, at least it means that people do understand these things when they hear them.

Another thing I had noticed years ago but never so clearly (as I never had anything to compare it with before) was that Taiwanese will often say "be-hiang" for "be-hiau". I thought I was imagining it before, but now I'm sure of it. It was in the phrase "be-hiau kong" that I heard it most clearly, so it could be an influence from the intial of the kong.

[xng]

Hi niuc,

Of course you should comment, even if you're not Taiwanese ! Actually, I think your comment is quite valuable. So, Penang Hokkien "wa" is probably from Teochew, independent of any Taiwanese variant, and Taiwanese "wa" is probably influenced by Mandarin "wo". Of course, without doing detailed research (both geographical and historical), we can't know for certain, but the theory on the face of it is quite plausible.

PS. On an unrelated matter, I had the very strange experience of being complimented by the Taiwanese that my Hokkien was very elevated and formal! This is because I used the word "tam-poh" for "a bit". They all said it sounded very "deep" to them, and that they normally say "sio-khua" .

1. There is no 'W' initial consonant in all minnan dialects. This is a corruption of the original 'Gua'. Name me one other word that starts with 'W' in minnan ? None ? That proves it.

2. I have always wondered why taiwanese never use 'Tam Poh', is 'Tam Poh' Quanzhou or Zhangzhou ? In Putian, they use Tam Poh.

[SimL]

It was in the phrase "be-hiau kong" that I heard it most clearly, so it could be an influence from the intial of the kong.

Hi Ah-bin,

Did you mean "initial" or "final"...? I would be more inclined to think that the final "-ng" would do this.

[Ah-bin]

It was the initial of the kong I was thinking about, perhaps it had some influence in making the hiau into a hiang. But I haven't heard it in many other phrases yet, so I am not really sure if it is restricted to that phrase or not.

[Andrew]

1. There is no 'W' initial consonant in all minnan dialects. This is a corruption of the original 'Gua'. Name me one other word that starts with 'W' in minnan ? None ? That proves it.

Yes, everyone agrees that it is a corruption, but it is not only a Penang phenomenon. It exists also in Singapore, and possibly elsewhere.

Gw- becoming W- is also attested in English and elsewhere. Similarly, in Cantonese Ngo becoming O is well known.

[niuc]

PS. On an unrelated matter, I had the very strange experience of being complimented by the Taiwanese that my Hokkien was very elevated and formal! This is because I used the word "tam-poh" for "a bit". They all said it sounded very "deep" to them, and that they normally say "sio-khua" .

Sim, interesting experience! My variant uses both, but tends to use "tam-poh" more than "sio-khua". In Singapore I can't recall anyone using the latter.

Another thing I had noticed years ago but never so clearly (as I never had anything to compare it with before) was that Taiwanese will often say "be-hiang" for "be-hiau". I thought I was imagining it before, but now I'm sure of it. It was in the phrase "be-hiau kong" that I heard it most clearly, so it could be an influence from the intial of the kong.

Ah-bin, both are used and interchangable in my variant, not only in "be-hiau kong", e.g. [勿會]曉半項 'bue7-hiau2-pua*3-hang7' = 'bue7-hiang2-pua*3-hang7' = don't know/understand anything at all. They are also interchangable for affirmative/question i.e. without "bue/be".

Btw using 半 'pua*3' for emphasis seems to be a Hokkien characteristic, e.g. 無人 'bo5-lang5' -> 無半人 'bo5-pua*3-lang5'. It is not in Mandarin. Does it exist in other Sinitic languages?

[hohomi]

Btw using 半 'pua*3' for emphasis seems to be a Hokkien characteristic, e.g. 無人 'bo5-lang5' -> 無半人 'bo5-pua*3-lang5'. It is not in Mandarin. Does it exist in other Sinitic languages?

They tend to use "one" instead of "half" in Mandarin, although they can understand when you use "half".

H: 無半人
M: 一個人都沒有。

H: 袂曉半項
M: 一點都不懂。

H: 無半分錢 bo5 puann3 hun tsinn5
M: 一個子都沒有。

Do you say "無半鐳 bo5 puann3 lui2" in the last case?

[niuc]

Do you say "無半鐳 bo5 puann3 lui2" in the last case?

No, I never say 無半[鐳]. I would say 無半項[鐳] 'bo5-pua*3-hang7-lui1', but I prefer 無半[仙]錢 'bo5-pua*3-sian1-ci*5'.