A grammar question or two...

[Ah-bin]

I have finally checked and found that all of those dictionaries of reconstructed Early Middle Chinese and Ancient Chinese do in fact put an h on the end, but it is not the POJ -h representing a glottal stop, but the Malay -h supposed to represent aspiration. The problem is that it is on the end of all the syllables with with a 去聲, not just 故. To be really convincing, you need other examples of doublets with a later 去聲 deriving from an earlier 入聲.

[hohomi]

I have finally checked and found that all of those dictionaries of reconstructed Early Middle Chinese and Ancient Chinese do in fact put an h on the end, but it is not the POJ -h representing a glottal stop, but the Malay -h supposed to represent aspiration. The problem is that it is on the end of all the syllables with with a 去聲, not just 故. To be really convincing, you need other examples of doublets with a later 去聲 deriving from an earlier 入聲.

In Fuzhou dialect, it is [kou3](故) and [kai3] that have the same meaning as [koh] in Hokkien.
[kai3] is supposedly a combination of [kou tsai](故再).

The idea of associating koh with 故 is from this article:
http://homepage.ntu.edu.tw/~bcla/e_book/60/06.pdf

[xng]

In Fuzhou dialect, it is [kou3](故) and [kai3] that have the same meaning as [koh] in Hokkien.
[kai3] is supposedly a combination of [kou tsai](故再).

The idea of associating koh with 故 is from this article:
http://homepage.ntu.edu.tw/~bcla/e_book/60/06.pdf/

I doubt Ah Bin can read chinese characters so please translate for him.

並且在閩方言間具有同源關係，來自古漢語的「故」。

I will translate this part, it seems that 故 comes from Old Chinese and has the meaning of "「仍然」" ie. still.

I am lost regarding the explanation of tones as I am not versed with 1,2,3 tones notation.

[SimL]

...
I doubt Ah Bin can read chinese characters so please translate for him.

At the risk of embarassing Ah-bin still further, I'd like to point out item number 5 on the list below:

Haha! I feel Ah-bin is being rather too modest about his credentials...
I think there would be very few sinologists (or members of this forum, for that matter) who could:

1. Meet a group of three Malaysians on a long-distance bus from Germany to Holland and speak Cantonese to one of them, Hokkien to the other two, and Mandarin to all three.
2. Go to the largest Chinese bookstore in Amsterdam, and speak to the proprietor in Cantonese, discussing the difference between two different variants of Cantonese, and the pricing policy in the shop.
3. Go to one of the neighbourhood Chinese take-away restaurants here in Amsterdam and speak (albeit basic) Hakka to the proprietor.
4. Decide during a long stay in Taiwan that he would have "Taiwanese-only days" where he would refuse to speak Mandarin to anyone he met, insisting that he only spoke Taiwanese.
5. Commute every day from Amsterdam to Leiden to do research at the Leiden University Library (the major library for East Asian studies in the Netherlands) with a 14th century Chinese novel in his knapsack for light reading*.
6. Take Dutch as a "minor", to complement his Chinese "major" at university, and then speak it so well on the streets of Amsterdam that I (and I'm sure most Dutch people) can't tell that he's not a native speaker.
7. Go for 3 days to Newcastle-on-Tyne in the north of England (a city which - as the name suggests - straddles the River Tyne) and come back saying: "I've worked out what one of the key differences between the people natively born north of the Tyne River and those born south of it is. One group pronounces <X> like "<this>", while the other group pronounces it like "<this>" (imitating and reproducing a tiny difference in the sound of the vowel).
8. Speak basic Estonian, German and Danish.
9. Speak Maori well.
So, there. I hope I haven't embarrassed Ah-bin by revealing some aspects of his background, but I feel that because he poses his questions about (Penang and other forms of) Hokkien in such a modest way, people may not realise just how much he knows.

I take off my hat to you, ah-bin.

Perhaps I should have pointed out that this novel was in Chinese, and in Chinese characters .

Nevertheless, xng makes a very valid point. My Chinese sucks, and I can't even a children's short story in characters, so any translation would be very appreciated (but not obligatory, of course!).

[xng]

Haha! I feel Ah-bin is being rather too modest about his credentials...

I am sorry, I must have mixed him up with someone else who said he can't read chinese.

From the article that hohomi quoted....

廈門話表「仍然」與「再次」的副詞都讀為ko/7，其他如泉州、漳州、永春、漳平等閩南方言也都讀陰入調。關於這兩種用法，各種詞典和論著幾乎都寫為入聲字，或為「擱」，或為「佫」、「各」等。這些都是借音字

translation:

擱 is borrowed character for its sound. It seems that Xiamen pronounciation is different from the rest which reads as Low Entering tone. What is Ko7 ?

[hohomi]

It seems that Xiamen pronounciation is different from the rest which reads as Low Entering tone. What is Ko7 ?

They have a different tone order. 7 is Yin entering tone(陰入) in their system.

Code: Select all

       yin yang
ping   1   2
shang  3   4
qu     5   6
ru     7   8

[SimL]

Hi xng,

Many thanks for the translation . You could have mixed him up with me. My Chinese must be the very worst of anyone on this Forum!

They have a different tone ordering. 7 is Yin entering tone(陰入) in their system.

Yes, I've seen this system before. It seems to be quite popular among sinologists. Very confusing for us poor POJ users.

[xng]

What happened to Ah Bin ? Missing in action without his replies ?

[SimL]

I think he's just very busy at the moment. Me too actually, which is why I still haven't responded to his 'phrase-final "koh" in Penang Hokkien'-questions. I'm sure that one or both will be back soon.

Take care .