Some more videoclips

[amhoanna]

Two observations on Singapore and Holo, m̄ cai ū iáⁿ bô:

1. The great majority of (even young) people in Singapore can at least understand Holo. (Unlike Amoy.)

2. A lot of S'poreans are riled up about the top-down effort to cleanse Singapore of the Holo/Tiociu language(s). (Unlike Taiwan, where most people don't really mind.)

What did U guys think about the pro-Cantonese protests in Canton last summer? Could something like that ever happen in S'pore for Holo-Tiociu?

If so ... S'pore could be the epicenter for a "Holo Renaissance". Heartlanders may struggle financially, but most of Asia looks up to S'pore in money matters. And "Holo-Tiociu" actually kind of exists in S'pore. Another plus——get everybody on board together.

Languages happen and languages die, so no big deal. But Holo——better yet, Holo-Tiociu——still has lots of speakers, lots of life (in a broad sense), great urban presence in strategic locations... Tiâukiāⁿ too good for it to get buried by a few perverted cèngkheh. Maybe it just needs to be re-associated with two things: money and sex. M̄ cai áncoáⁿ cò siōng hó?

[SimL]

Despite Medan Hokkien being so close to Penang Hokkien, I'm afraid I can't understand much of the lyrics at all. Even with Andrew's transcription, I still had immense difficulty.

Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/user/JeromeLeong ... D4fgNCYgRY

[AndrewAndrew]

Sim - I'll transliterate the words as I heard them:

三號八月koh八三年
sann-hō peh-goėh koh peh-tsȧp-nî
生出來[加]囡仔疕
see-tshut-lâi [kee] gín-ná-phí
喙垃儳講著屎話
tshùi lâ-sâm kóng-tiȯh sái-oā
[人拺bē停寫？？話]
[lâng sȧk-bē-têng siá ? ? oā]
看藍戲[恬恬是]看藍戲
khoànn-lâm-hì [tiām-tiām-sī] khoànn-lâm-hì
看查某水水 [嚷嚷真渴]
khoànn-tsa-bóo súi-súi [jiáng-jiáng tsīn-khoah]
[真]koh有按呢濟翁公仔無hiú[咱]人講的話...
[tsīn]koh ū án-nee tsē ang-kong-á bô hiú [lán]-lâng-kóng--ê oā

Thanks, Andrew. It would be cool to be able to understand that "Northern Straits" Hokkien so effortlessly.

Haha, if only other forms of Hokkien were as easy.

The 4th line seems to end in 特别特别大.

That's possible ...

藍戲 means porn flicks?

Yes, it sounds English-derived, but so does the date order.

Could the end of the 6th line be 尖尖真闊?

Not sure - what is the connotation of 尖 tsiam?

And what is an 翁公仔?

Ang-kong is what Douglas would call an idol, hence pài-ang-kong. Ang-kong-á is a doll.

[niuc]

... I take heart at the "second half", which describes the survival (indeed, even flourishing) of Hokkien in this particular area of the arts.

Sim, not my intention to make you sad, but I think the "flourishing" in this context actually mean survival, still survive at getai, rather than it is expanding. The news mentions of a young man who can speak Hokkien fluently, this is good, meaning Hokkien may survive but nevertheless its sphere has been much decreasing.

'Another veteran getai artiste Zhuang Qingyu, 42, believes that "Hokkien just has the unique ability to bind people together".'

This is true among those in their 30s & above, as they usually still know at least some Hokkien, regardless whether they are Hokkien or not. Youngsters now usually only know English & Mandarin.

Today I just read that Singapore government rejected a recent request for "dialects" to be allowed on public tv (except some art programs such as Chinese opera). "Dialects" have been allowed in cinema, vcd/dvd and cable tv. The reason given is that too many Singaporean are still not good in Chinese (read: Mandarin), so adding "dialects" on tv programs will only be a further hindrance to master it well. In a sense it is true, most Chinese kids here are more well versed in English (or Singlish) than Mandarin. I think the government here is anxious to get all Chinese united (by forcing a common "mother tongue"), as Chinese here realize that "we are surrounded by non-Chinese (or even anti-Chinese) countries". Singapore is too fragile to allow space for racial intolerance, including rivalry among Chinese groups (as happened last time). I can understand the concerns, but I still think there can be better way, more "win-win" solution... but apparently government thinks of Singaporean as not able to be effectively multi-lingual.

Two observations on Singapore and Holo, m̄ cai ū iáⁿ bô:

1. The great majority of (even young) people in Singapore can at least understand Holo. (Unlike Amoy.)

Amhoanna, as mentioned above, people around 30 and above usually can understand at least a bit, but that usually decrease in parallel to age.

O yeah, it is interesting that Hokkien is often used among late teenage boys doing National Service. Many learned their Hokkien there. May be this is due to perception that Hokkien is more macho. However, unlike Taiwan, ladies who know how to speak Hokkien here are not ashamed of speaking it. Btw, may be due to multilingual environment, Hokkien used here usually is not "cheem" (chim1 = deep) enough, and usually "rojak" (mixed with Singlish, Mandarin, Teochew, Cantonese and Malay).

2. A lot of S'poreans are riled up about the top-down effort to cleanse Singapore of the Holo/Tiociu language(s). (Unlike Taiwan, where most people don't really mind.)

Yes, Singaporeans like to complain.

What did U guys think about the pro-Cantonese protests in Canton last summer? Could something like that ever happen in S'pore for Holo-Tiociu?

Never, as Singaporean do not dare to oppose the government openly, only complain and complain among themselves. Anyway demonstration usually is not allowed in Singapore. Certain protests are allowed but need license, and only at certain place. In a sense I agree that Singapore cannot afford to allow for demonstrations et al... the country is very small and it really needs political stability to survive.

If so ... S'pore could be the epicenter for a "Holo Renaissance". Heartlanders may struggle financially, but most of Asia looks up to S'pore in money matters. And "Holo-Tiociu" actually kind of exists in S'pore. Another plus——get everybody on board together.

It is possible that Hokkien can be revived here, although the chance is slim. The government here is for everything that can bring stability and money in. If Hokkien/Teochew Minnan can be of that value, I believe it will be supported. The point is in what way Hokkien (or any language in fact) can be used to support this country's agenda?

Languages happen and languages die, so no big deal. But Holo——better yet, Holo-Tiociu——still has lots of speakers, lots of life (in a broad sense), great urban presence in strategic locations... Tiâukiāⁿ too good for it to get buried by a few perverted cèngkheh. Maybe it just needs to be re-associated with two things: money and sex. M̄ cai áncoáⁿ cò siōng hó?

Indeed. Hokkien/Minnan is also a living "fossil" of much older Chinese than Mandarin. Sia*2-lang5 u7 ho2-pan7-huat4?

Yes, it sounds English-derived, but so does the date order.

Andrew, yes, English and most probably through Indonesian (film biru). The date order is also used in Indonesian. I kind of heard some Indonesian words there but I can't recall now.

[amhoanna]

Here's a video of kid actors in Kúiⁿtang speaking what they call Hok8-lo2, and speaking it "chim":

http://www.56.com/u23/v_MTIzODc1MDg.html

The subtitles are an interesting mix of púnjī and newly created jī.

[Ah-bin]

Singapore is too fragile to allow space for racial intolerance, including rivalry among Chinese groups (as happened last time).

Is Singapore really that fragile? I would have thought Taiwan had more problems than Singapore. what with the hostile neighbour and jostling for power between different ethnic groups,but they don't have problems eith letting people demonstrate any more.

The reason given is that too many Singaporean are still not good in Chinese (read: Mandarin), so adding "dialects" on tv programs will only be a further hindrance to master it well. In a sense it is true, most Chinese kids here are more well versed in English (or Singlish) than Mandarin.

Many policies in Singapore about language, culture, morality, etc., have their root in Harry Lee's personal prejudices and whims, so we shouldn't expect them to make too much sense. What Harry didn't understand was that native speaker proficiency in varieties of non-Mandarin Chinese would have aided Chinese Singaporeans greatly in the quick acquisition of Mandarin, but instead by pushing English in the 1960's and 70's he was responsible for creating a large group of Singaporeans who had very little knowledge of any sort of Chinese. Trying to teach this group to reach fluency in Mandarin is almost as hard as getting a bunch of non-Chinese kids in New Zealand to do it, especially if it is treated as a single subject, rather than a medium of teaching for teaching.

At least that is how I see it.

[amhoanna]

Yeah, it always felt too respectful calling him "LKY" or Lee Kuan Yew. Harry Lee it is from now on.

A quote from Gopalan Nair:

I sometimes find it hard to accept the fact that in a country with such an educated population, why do they not realize, as everyone can see, that if sufficient numbers show their dissatisfaction, the magic words being sufficient numbers, the government is powerless to punish everyone. And it is not too hard to galvanize sufficient numbers. Surely this is possible.

I better get some of this down while paktó͘ lāi ū hoé, cai ron ron.

If Hokkien/Teochew Minnan can be of that value, I believe it will be supported. The point is in what way Hokkien (or any language in fact) can be used to support this country's agenda?

Branding! (<-- something I don't understand too well, but would like to bring into this discussion)

This is getting to be a big problem for certain countries in Asia. Okay, so we made our Tiger fortunes off OEM/ODM. But the profit margins shrank. Here come China and Vietnam. Someday, a hard-charging North Korea. The Tigers made, the world took. But somebody else did the creating, upstream from the making, and they raked in most of the lui. And still do.

New ideas have to flow from what we are. But how does that work when we're pretending to be something we're not?! (S. Korea is excused...)

Wasn't there a TV series made in Sg about a powerful peranakan clan? So we tune in and hear the characters speaking ... Mandarin! Complete with retroflex consonants! Cinciàⁿ hō͘ lâng siūⁿbeh thò͘.

For better or worse, the Hoklo-Tiociu culture can be identified w/ Sg in a "real", "genuine", "knee-jerk" way, and give S'porean players that oomph to build their brand. To some extent, so are Hakka culture, Malay culture, Tamil culture, Cantonese culture. But Mandarin? Does it ring true? English: does it really, really ring true? Is the playing field really level for English-speaking S'poreans vs the imported rajahs downtown? Or is just always gonna be more of the Singapore Girl and Annabel Chong? And why all the orang tengah putih in the magazines, when it's all yellow and brown in the streets? It wouldn't happen in Seoul...

My parents' friend's Sg-raised 10-year-old son——very bright, head of the class, the works——didn't know what a Sumatra was. Why? And why the conspiracy to Tiong-ify the population? And why the ignorance of SE Asian history? The Chams and Srivijaya and so on? Why deny everything that Sg (or Taiwan, or Malaysia) ever was, then turn around and gripe about cîⁿ pháiⁿ thàn...

[niuc]

Here's a video of kid actors in Kúiⁿtang speaking what they call Hok8-lo2, and speaking it "chim":
http://www.56.com/u23/v_MTIzODc1MDg.html
The subtitles are an interesting mix of púnjī and newly created jī.

Thank you, Amhoanna! The two kids are so fluent and "chim" indeed, even talking about 話仁! So that is 陸豐 Hoklo (Teochew)... a bit different e.g. their 人 lang5 sounds like Hokkien lang1 instead of usual nang1.

[niuc]

Is Singapore really that fragile? I would have thought Taiwan had more problems than Singapore. what with the hostile neighbour and jostling for power between different ethnic groups,but they don't have problems eith letting people demonstrate any more.

Disclaimer first: I am not an expert in socio-political stuffs, so these are just my "ignorant" opinions.

From my limited experience, unfortunately it most probably is. Taiwan is much bigger than Singapore and is more capable of self survival. Singapore needs water and food from other countries and has no natural resources. In Taiwan the rivalry for power didn't involve riot and mass killing (not counting 228 massacre), while in Indonesia, Malaysia & Singapore (then part of Malaysia), that happened for many times already. As a survivor of Jakarta riot (May 1998, btw Medan & Bagan also plagued by riots that year), I really don't want to see it anymore. Not only I couldn't go to work & study (final Univ year) for around two weeks, although by God's grace my family members didn't suffer direct assaults, seeing the destructions and subsequent show of enmity (only a few, but still threatening, e.g. I was punched & insulted for being Chinese, a few weeks after the riot), that was the lowest period of my life. I was full of hatred, insecurity and so on, deep depression that went away only when I left Jakarta for Singapore. I could understand the feeling of those Chinese victims in Malay majority area in Malaysia or Malay victims in Singapore during their respective riot. So yes, I think racial and religious harmony in these three countries as being very fragile. They look nice, displaying a tolerant face, but you never know when it will be a full scale riot. In fact even this year there are still churches burnt, and recently pastors stabbed in Bekasi (just east of Jakarta and still part of Jakarta Metropolis!).

It is easier to do demonstrations in Indonesia and Malaysia than in Singapore. In Jakarta sometimes they burned cars etc during demonstrations. Personally I also agree that peaceful protests should be allowed, but given the fact that they can turn into riots, I kind of understand why Singapore doesn't allow much protests. A lot of Singaporeans like to complain about many things (not that I don't ), and I usually tell them to try to live in Jakarta for one year, then they will know how to appreciate Singapore.

Many policies in Singapore about language, culture, morality, etc., have their root in Harry Lee's personal prejudices and whims, so we shouldn't expect them to make too much sense.

No doubt. Indeed he is very clever and Singapore wouldn't be as good today without him, but surely he did mistakes also (which he acknowledged, though not specific, in interview published in newspaper). Most Singaporeans' feeling about him is mixed, admiration, like him for certain things and dislike him for other things. Surely I think he could have been better, but compared to Soeharto or Mahathir, I would be more than glad to have him.

What Harry didn't understand was that native speaker proficiency in varieties of non-Mandarin Chinese would have aided Chinese Singaporeans greatly in the quick acquisition of Mandarin, but instead by pushing English in the 1960's and 70's he was responsible for creating a large group of Singaporeans who had very little knowledge of any sort of Chinese.

You are right. However I guess this is not among decisions he thought he was wrong. If not mistaken, he was against Chinese schools and closed them because the proponents of Chinese education were against him and wanted a closer relation with PRC. He was pro West, so he was wary of PRC, he didn't realize that Chinese would be an important language... of course now he is a good friend of PRC, and in fact Singapore has learned to be friend of everyone.

The "funny" thing is that now the government still thinks of "dialects" as a potential corruptor of "purer" Mandarin!

Trying to teach this group to reach fluency in Mandarin is almost as hard as getting a bunch of non-Chinese kids in New Zealand to do it, especially if it is treated as a single subject, rather than a medium of teaching for teaching.

Exactly. It is often discussed here in newspapers that many Chinese kids here hate to learn Chinese in school. Even some Chinese speaking parents asked their children not to take Higher Chinese (not compulsory), so they wouldn't get low marks.

[Ah-bin]

Thanks so much for this long response Niuc, actually, I had hoped to get your enlightened opinion on the subject, since you are an "outsider" who has also had experience of living where things have not historically been so stable. I have talked about these issues with Singaporeans before, but was never quite sure how to take their responses because they seemed to be programmed in (kind of like the reactions you get from most PRC people when you mention Taiwan, it takes a bit of digging around to find people who don't agree with the CCP position, but they are there.

Of course if I lived in Singapore I would get to hear a wide variety of opinions, other than the government programmed responses, but I don't. So I am very grateful for hearing your own opinions.

I see what you mean by fragile now. It isn't the threat of internal dissension, but rather the external reaction to the way it might be dealt with that is a problem for Singapore. I was thinking you meant that Singaporean society itself was fragile, which is why I drew the comparison with Taiwan.

I was in the ROC when those riots in Jakarta happened, at a university inTaichung where most of the students (about 95% percent) were Indonesian Chinese. Most of them ended up living in Taiwan for good. Actually around that area there were a few generations of Indonesian Chinese who had done the same thing after earlier rounds of persecution.