Some more videoclips

[niuc]

A quote from Gopalan Nair:

I sometimes find it hard to accept the fact that in a country with such an educated population, why do they not realize, as everyone can see, that if sufficient numbers show their dissatisfaction, the magic words being sufficient numbers, the government is powerless to punish everyone. And it is not too hard to galvanize sufficient numbers. Surely this is possible.

Provided it is for good cause, otherwise it would be anarchy.

cai ron ron

Phasa Thai mai? Phai2-se3 la0, gua2 bue7-hiau2...

Wasn't there a TV series made in Sg about a powerful peranakan clan? So we tune in and hear the characters speaking ... Mandarin! Complete with retroflex consonants! Cinciàⁿ hō͘ lâng siūⁿbeh thò͘.

Tio8-si7 lor0! Mana u7 ba7-ba7/niu5-hia*1 kong2 kok4-gy2 e0! :io5-thau5!:

For better or worse, the Hoklo-Tiociu culture can be identified w/ Sg in a "real", "genuine", "knee-jerk" way, and give S'porean players that oomph to build their brand. To some extent, so are Hakka culture, Malay culture, Tamil culture, Cantonese culture. But Mandarin? Does it ring true?

Ya loh! From what I heard, none think of it as "mother tongue" (as intended by government). Isn't it tragic that this "mother tongue" is the one separating some grandchildren from their grandparents who don't know Mandarin?

Anyway, I don't think the government here will allow that, even though it will be loved by public. It is so afraid of potential clannish mentality among Chinese, it wants a unified Chinese Singaporean. If "dialects" can help them bring money in from outside Singapore, they may be of any use for it, otherwise if only to reach to local consumers, though it is good for businesses, it won't be allowed.

English: does it really, really ring true?

At least it (or should be: Singlish) rings truer than Mandarin.

Is the playing field really level for English-speaking S'poreans vs the imported rajahs downtown? Or is just always gonna be more of the Singapore Girl and Annabel Chong? And why all the orang tengah putih in the magazines, when it's all yellow and brown in the streets? It wouldn't happen in Seoul...

Somehow just being angmoh is a great gain in this region, as SE Asian somehow "love" them very much. It is so obvious e.g. in a store, how they serve you vs orang puteh, as the latter (not his fault) is practically always treated as a VIP, may be many SE Asians forget that they are not under colonialism anymore...

My parents' friend's Sg-raised 10-year-old son——very bright, head of the class, the works——didn't know what a Sumatra was. Why? And why the conspiracy to Tiong-ify the population? And why the ignorance of SE Asian history? The Chams and Srivijaya and so on? Why deny everything that Sg (or Taiwan, or Malaysia) ever was, then turn around and gripe about cîⁿ pháiⁿ thàn...

You are right... I was a bit shocked to know that most of my Singaporean friends didn't know much about geography or history, at most they knew that West Malaysia was big, but didn't know that Indonesia was much much bigger. If not mistaken, US people also hardly know anything outside US, right? In Indonesia we learned about world history, so most Indonesians know at least a bit about Chinese dynasties, where is Africa on the map... but local history was mostly about Sumatra & Java, nothing about Papua. Education here focuses too much on math & technical knowledge, but not social stuff or good attitude... personally I think character building is the most important to be taught, especially to young children.

Yesterday on my way to work, in train I stood next to a grandma with a young boy (may be less than 10), he spoke Hokkien very well and natural! I thought of praising him but I was afraid of scaring them off, anyway they alighted soon. Not sure if they are Singaporean or Malaysian or Taiwanese etc...

[amhoanna]

Interesting views, Niuc. I read about the 98 riots when they happened and it was pretty chilling to even rd about them, let alone live through them. I don't think the situation in TW is similar in this respect. Resentment hasn't really passed down to the younger generations, although the effects are still with us, inc. something I think some of you guys have noticed, which is that TW people tend to "systematically" lack curiosity about many things.

I've spent some time in KL (and Sabah) and have had some other Malaysian contacts. Aside from the (many) Tn̂glâng who get along well with the "hoanná", it seems that Tn̂glâng in KL generally believe that pâi Hoâ is something that was just sprung on them unfairly by the "hoanná" out of nowhere, for no reason, or at most for a non-reason, like jealousy. A few observations, though.

(1) At one point, Tn̂glâng and "Moslem Austronesians" got along great in the Lâm'iûⁿ. They even started families together.

(2) The first mass acts of violence against Tn̂glâng in the Lâm'iûⁿ were carried out by the Dutch and the Spanish.

(3) There is no pâi Hoâ on the Sulu Islands (Jolo, etc.). But the Spanish were never able to "divide and conquer" the Tausug and the Hokkiens on the Sulu Islands.

So, in any case, I hope things get better for everybody.

[amhoanna]

Yesterday on my way to work, in train I stood next to a grandma with a young boy (may be less than 10), he spoke Hokkien very well and natural! I thought of praising him but I was afraid of scaring them off, anyway they alighted soon. Not sure if they are Singaporean or Malaysian or Taiwanese etc...

Last year in the cngkha east of Tâitiong, Taiwan, I went inside a shop and saw this seven-year-old boy "holding forth" in Hoklo at a chim level with nuanced emotional content. It's not rare for kids (esp boys) in the "cháutē" (艸地) kinds of places to speak good Hoklo, but this kid was really articulate. I thought to to myself, "He hasn't been learning Hoklo for as long as I have. But he's so far ahead of me."

So that is 陸豐 Hoklo (Teochew)... a bit different e.g. their 人 lang5 sounds like Hokkien lang1 instead of usual nang1.

How well do you think a Teochew speaker would be able to understand them? Their language is supposedly neither Hokkien nor Teochew, but rather a "Ciangciu meets Tiôciu meets Tâng'oaⁿ" kind of deal.

When I went to Soàⁿboé 汕尾, I had an easier time understanding them than I did with the Hoklo in Cio̍hsai (Coânciu). Even more surprising, most of them understood me w/o any hesitation. Some people didn't know the word "Tâi'oân", though, so I had to use Cantonese to tell them where I came from.

[niuc]

Thanks so much for this long response Niuc, actually, I had hoped to get your enlightened opinion on the subject, since you are an "outsider" who has also had experience of living where things have not historically been so stable.

You are most welcome, Ah-bin.

I see what you mean by fragile now. It isn't the threat of internal dissension, but rather the external reaction to the way it might be dealt with that is a problem for Singapore. I was thinking you meant that Singaporean society itself was fragile, which is why I drew the comparison with Taiwan.

I think both, as Singapore is just a small city island, so it is closely "connected" to its neighbours. Internally, although the racial problems are hardly heard, there are still some resentments against each other, e.g. some Malays might complain that there are too few or no Malay holding command in the army (we even heard this from Malaysian & Indonesian ministers commenting against what they termed as discrimination in Singapore), while Chinese might complain why Malays were given free education (some say not anymore, but I am not sure), and so on. It is all well now because all is under tight control. And even so, some Singaporean Muslims still joined terrorist networks, so internally Singapore is still fragile.

I was in the ROC when those riots in Jakarta happened, at a university inTaichung where most of the students (about 95% percent) were Indonesian Chinese. Most of them ended up living in Taiwan for good. Actually around that area there were a few generations of Indonesian Chinese who had done the same thing after earlier rounds of persecution.

I see... naturally Indonesian Chinese will still move out. Many still like to live in Indonesia because of business opportunity, 250 million is a big market, but I prefer stability.

[Ah-bin]

Somehow just being angmoh is a great gain in this region, as SE Asian somehow "love" them very much. It is so obvious e.g. in a store, how they serve you vs orang puteh, as the latter (not his fault) is practically always treated as a VIP, may be many SE Asians forget that they are not under colonialism anymore...

How true!! I told that last bit to Chinese and Vietnamese friends when they told me about how much Angmohs get paid for doing the same job that locals can do for less. I think so many of the problems interaction between Angmoh and locals in Eastern Asia have their root in colonial period attitudes. In Taiwan it was the idea that one should feel embarrassed for not being able to speak English to a white person. Or that white people command some sort of status. Over long periods of time this begins to encourage bad attitudes on the part of Angmoh too.

Some more examples:

There are all those people from the Phillipines who speak English natively and they won't give them English teaching jobs in Taiwan or Japan because they prefer some German or French person with a poorer command of English who looks the part.

My ex-girlfriend told me there are districts in HK where the owners of restaurants and cafes don't like people who speak Cantonese to go there.

[niuc]

I don't think the situation in TW is similar in this respect. Resentment hasn't really passed down to the younger generations...

Amhoanna, good for TW then, I think that's due to the fact that Chinese usually go for money and not ideology.

(1) At one point, Tn̂glâng and "Moslem Austronesians" got along great in the Lâm'iûⁿ. They even started families together.

Last time the version of Islam in this region was much more tolerant, but going more and more intolerant nowadays. Aceh kingdom had queens even after they converted to Islam, but as it became more and more Islamic, only men were allowed to lead. Malays in Riau were much more "orthodox" compared to Javanese (a lot "abangan" i.e. incorporating Hindu-Buddhist philosophies), but I never saw anyone wearing "jilbab" / head covering in Riau before 90s. At most they wear beautiful & often tranparent scarves. But now even in Java and Jakarta we see many wearing jilbab, including in Singapore and Malaysia.

Another factor was that Chinese here were not as many, and they were not perceived as being rich or accused of controlling economy. Some Chinese did marry local women and became Muslims, but I don't think local women who married into Peranakan families were Muslims, as Peranakan have been largely preserving Chinese religions or becoming Christians. Some said that they were Balinese (a lot of them sold as slaves to Batavia or Malacca), Thai or other non-muslim Austronesians.

(2) The first mass acts of violence against Tn̂glâng in the Lâm'iûⁿ were carried out by the Dutch and the Spanish.

Yes. There is a river named Kali Angke in Jakarta where Chinese were massacred by Dutch. The name Angke (ang5-khue1/khe1) 紅溪, "red stream" refers to the colour of the river reddened by blood.

[niuc]

Last year in the cngkha east of Tâitiong, Taiwan, I went inside a shop and saw this seven-year-old boy "holding forth" in Hoklo at a chim level with nuanced emotional content. It's not rare for kids (esp boys) in the "cháutē" (艸地) kinds of places to speak good Hoklo, but this kid was really articulate.

Glad experience! In fact young age has great advantage in learning languages.

How well do you think a Teochew speaker would be able to understand them? Their language is supposedly neither Hokkien nor Teochew, but rather a "Ciangciu meets Tiôciu meets Tâng'oaⁿ" kind of deal.

I see... I wonder how could it had Ciangciu influence as it was at the other end of Teochew area, was it due to migration? I have sent the link to my Teochew friends, waiting for their comments.

When I went to Soàⁿboé 汕尾, I had an easier time understanding them than I did with the Hoklo in Cio̍hsai (Coânciu). Even more surprising, most of them understood me w/o any hesitation. Some people didn't know the word "Tâi'oân", though, so I had to use Cantonese to tell them where I came from.

Interesting! Cin1-him1-sian7-ly2 u7-thang7 "pha1-pha1-cau2"!

[Ah-bin]

Up until the late 1800's the general trend was towards religious tolerance and intermarriage between Chinese and locals in Southeast Asia. Even the Dutch up to this time were not disposed to living like locals or marrying them. I think it was when the European notion version nation-states arrived in SEA that all the trouble started, and people began to talk in terms of different races and being bumiputera and so on. From that point onwards people began to draw lines to define themselves as one group or another, where it really didn't matter before. The leftovers from this time include the food and the Baba-Nyonya culture, I don't know so much about them though, so I can't go into details about anything (except the language mix).

I wish I could remember some of the good books about it. One good article was by J. William Skinner, Creolised Chinese Societies in SEA.

Anthony Reid wrote about how the Javanese elites intermarried with Chinese traders in really early times. Amhoanna has already talked about the Chinese connections with the Siamese royal family. The Vietnamese case was the same, the Tran dynasty was basically a Hokkien dynasty. Many tragedies of the 20th century came from the refusal to acknowledge cultural mixing and intermarriage as a normal human activity throughout history, and the demand instead for "purity" in language, culture, race etc.

Perhaps I should make a reading list of nice books about the social history of the Straits and Indonesia. Some of them are hard to come by though, I think.

This sort of history was already being written twenty years ago, it just takes a long time to filter out into the minds of most people, especially when states are keen on propogating their own version of themselves.

[amhoanna]

Interesting observations on the changes in Riau. I read a book (can't remember the title or author) describing how a certain kind of Wahhabi Islam is sweeping through the Islamic world b/c of the power of the Saudis, and the Saudis have so much power b/c of their US ties. So no dangdut on Sumatra, huh?

Ah-bin, please do show us your reading list if you put it together. I wonder if there was ever intermarriage w/o conversion.

I see... I wonder how could it had Ciangciu influence as it was at the other end of Teochew area, was it due to migration?

Absolutely. My impression (from the literature) is that most of the Hoklo families trace their bloodlines back to Ciangciu at a time-depth of 300-350 years. Seems like Bânlâm was a horrible place to live back then. There were also imperial edicts that uprooted coastal villages and moved everybody xx li inland so they wouldn't (A) get attacked by pirates OR (B) work together with the pirates. A typical "Mandarin" way to solve a "wet" problem. I think this is why so much of the coastal countryside became settled by 閩 speakers: b/c they went sailing around anyway, and they came across all this deserted countryside...

In other places, the coastal countryside was inhabited by hoanná. A lot of Hoklo men, from Henghoà esp., would go and live amongst the hoanná. Ji̍p hoan, so to speak. There was a paper by 張振興 on a dying language in the 電白 area (western Kúiⁿtang) which didn't seem Min or Yue, but had a lot of weird basic vocabulary. Then Weera Ostapirat came along and pointed out that the weird vocab was Tai-Kadai, and the data resembled Be w/ a Hoklo flair. Ah-bin might know more in this vein!

Amhoanna, good for TW then, I think that's due to the fact that Chinese usually go for money and not ideology.

Sure, how could ethnic reconciliation be bad? On the flip side, a lot of issues never got dealt with. They're still under the rug.

There are all those people from the Phillipines who speak English natively and they won't give them English teaching jobs in Taiwan or Japan because they prefer some German or French person with a poorer command of English who looks the part.

Some schools in China are posting "Filipino teachers wanted" ads now. I get the feeling that they're asking for Fil. teachers specifically so they can pay them less. The Koreans are going straight to the Phils to learn English. I tell a lot of Taiwanese people that they should consider doing the same, but judging from their replies it seems like it's against the national religion!

[Ah-bin]

There was a paper by 張振興 on a dying language in the 電白 area (western Kúiⁿtang) which didn't seem Min or Yue, but had a lot of weird basic vocabulary. Then Weera Ostapirat came along and pointed out that the weird vocab was Tai-Kadai, and the data resembled Be w/ a Hoklo flair. Ah-bin might know more in this vein!

That's the book about 舊時正話 isn't it? I wish I'd looked more carefully at it, or even bought myself a copy. It is an interesting language, said to be brought into the area by soldiers under the Ming Dynasty. I didn't notice that it had any stranger vocabulary than some of the old Yueh languages around the area though, but now I wish I;d looked a bit harder, because tha sort of thing is really useful. There is good evidence that the people in the area spoke Tai-Kadai languages from the place names, and some old texts from the T'ang and Sung contain "barbarian language" that corresponds to Tai in its phonological form and meaning.