Variants!

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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SimL
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Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Variants!

Post by SimL »

Hi niuc,
Yes, the first reason (air flow) was the main if not the only one. We call it 'lang7-huang1' (huang1=hong1), 'lang7' is to put something in the "open" air.
Oh, there's even a term for it! Thanks.

Yes, I thought even more about it and arrived at the conclusion that "1" must be the *only* reason. Adding the mesh is actually labour intensive: the square hole has to be cut out of the wood, the mesh has to be laid in place, and then narrow little flat slats of wood have to be nailed all around the edge of the square hole, to keep the mesh in position. And the mesh can get torn, and then needs to be replaced, etc. So in fact, it would be much easier/cheaper just to use solid wood. In other words, mesh is only used where it is really needed, i.e. to allow the 'lang7-huang1', and certainly not because it's cheaper.
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Variants!

Post by SimL »

Am-hoanna,

1. What is the Taiwanese term for "kiam" / "mih-phe" / "sam-phoe"?

2. Did the Taiwanese use "meat safes" (with mesh) too, and if so, did they have the "moats"? [Or perhaps you left Taiwan / are too young to know.]
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Variants!

Post by amhoanna »

Hi Sim,

1. Not really sure. In a pinch, I would say "chài" and be understood. I always had a nagging feeling that was the wrong word. It's probably just that kind of semi-Hoklo that makes people switch to Mandarin on me. :oops: My instinct says that most city-bred TW people my age, native speakers included, would also say "chài". I've asked a few people my age how to say 小菜 "sióchài" in real Hoklo, but they'll sit and brood over it and get sidetracked. People born around 1976 or '77 and earlier speak much better Hoklo, tho. The drop-off is tremendous. Tâi-Hoâ Soàⁿténg has both kiâm and mi̍hphoè/mi̍hphè. Tâigí Pe̍h'oē Sió Sûtián has mi̍hphoè/mi̍hphè and indicates that mi̍h can be pronounced with either its running tone or its standing tone, depending on the variant.

Before this thread, I wouldn't have understood kiâm if I'd heard it. I guess now I know why Hoklo dishes are so kiâm. :P

2. Yeah, that's way over my head! I'll ask some people over the course of the next few weeks. In Malay(si)a and Sumatra, was it something that only Hokkiens used?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Variants!

Post by amhoanna »

BTW one word always popped into mind when I had to say "mi̍hphoè", and that was 餸 /sung33/ (Canto). I wonder how they would say "sung" in Hoisan. That could have had something to do with the makings of "samphoè", whether or not there was any direct borrowing.
Ah-bin
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Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Variants!

Post by Ah-bin »

Should be lhung in Hoisaan, but I'll go and check.

I found out there a a whole bucnh of Penangites who speak Sin-ning (Lhin-ning) as their mother tongue. They have lost the lh- initial though and pronounce it as s-, but everything else is much the same.
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Variants!

Post by SimL »

Ah-bin wrote:...They have lost the lh- initial though and pronounce it as s-, but everything else is much the same.
Is this the lateral fricative?
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Variants!

Post by SimL »

Hi amhoanna,

Thanks for your feedback. Look forward to what you find out from some Taiwanese oldies you might ask.
amhoanna wrote:In Malay(si)a and Sumatra, was it something that only Hokkiens used?
Oh, I like the "Malay(si)a" solution. Often, when I want to talk here about things which happened to my parents in their youth, I find it awkward. I can't call the country they lived in "Malaysia" (because it didn't exist at that time), but writing "Malaya" is also strange, because what I want to say often still applies to the current situation in Malaysia.

So, writing "Malay(si)a" is ideal.

I think many non-Hokkiens used them as well. We lived next door to a Cantonese family, and as far as I remember, they had one also.
Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Variants!

Post by Ah-bin »

Is this the lateral fricative?
Yes, the same as ll in Welsh. it is found in basically all the languages spoken south of the West River 西江 (Sai Kang) to the top of the Lui-chiu Peninsula. Even the Hakka people who live in that area have picked it up, so I suppose it should be no surprise that Sin ning people lost it when they were surrounded by people who didn't have it in their languages.
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