Basic Minnan/Teochew Grammar

[Limet]

Oh and there is one more way in Teochew to ask yes/no questions. It only works with si, u, oi, and possibly a few other very common verbs. I didn't learn this until a few years ago so I'm actually a little un sure of the vowel in "kat" plus I'm not sure if it implies special meaning.

kat si?
kat u?
kat oi?

Comarison. In Teochew we use the following:

A is like B - A siao/yiang B
A is more ADJ than B - A ADJ gue B (Mandarin-influence has many TC in China saying A bi B ADJ)
A is not the same as B - A m dang B, A mben-ion B

[niuc]

Hi Amhoanna

Your mi̍h behaves just like the Taiwanese one. Apparently it's always high-level no matter what. Kind of weird, huh? It doesn't play by the same rules as other question words, e.g. saⁿh, siaⁿh, tó.

Oh, I didn't notice it before! I think may be because 'mi8' is in "different category" from those question words, as it is (or can be) a noun. IMO, sia*2-mi8 can literally be mapped as [what "thing"], parallel to sia*2-si5 [what time] (si5 here also retains standing tone even in a sentence), although there is also sia*2-mi8 si5-cun7 [what "thing" time]. Cf: sia*2-lang5, sia*2-mi8 lang5, even sia*2-mi8 mi8-kia*7 or sia*2-mi8 mng8-kia*7.

T2: 33-32 (vs. your 23-11)

Actually mine is 23-1, or should be written as 23-10 (RT-ST)? Our ST2 is actually lower than 11 (ST3) and kind of "cut". May be this is a glottal stop, but in this case it applies not only to ST4 & ST8 but also ST2. Our ST2 = ST4 but different RT, e.g. 死死 si[23] si[10] vs (金)爍爍 (kim[22]) si[30] si[10].

T3: 31-11 (vs. your 33-11)

RT3 in my variant = ST8, so it is not 33, but either 3 or 30, with "glottal stop" as described above.

I gotta say your T2 is especially wild. So when you guys say "Sure, alright," it's actually hó with a low tone? That's crazy!

Yes, our hó (ho, ST2) is ho[10]. Similar to Santa Clause's Ho Ho Ho.

Ánne kám ēhù?
Could mean either "Will it be in time?" or "Isn't that too rushed?" or a little of both.
I'd like to hear what Niuc and the Penang crew have to say about kám too. I don't think I've ever heard kám in Sg/M'sia.

In my variant many pronounce it as 'kan2', though I kinda remember 'kam2' too. We also use 'sua4' or 'ma2-na4' (from Malay "mana" = where).

[amhoanna]

I think may be because 'mi8' is in "different category" from those question words, as it is (or can be) a noun....

It seems strange to me too that the mi8 in símmi̍h never goes to its running tone.

Yes, our hó (ho, ST2) is ho[10]. Similar to Santa Clause's Ho Ho Ho.

And I thought Pasang high-level "hó" was funny! No offense.

In my variant many pronounce it as 'kan2', though I kinda remember 'kam2' too. We also use 'sua4' or 'ma2-na4' (from Malay "mana" = where).

Liáukái! No wonder y'all seem to understand me when I use "kám".

[niuc]

And I thought Pasang high-level "hó" was funny! No offense.

No problem. What is Pasang in this context? A place name?

[SimL]

I think amhoanna did mention very early on that it's the city of Klang, in Malaysia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klang

The latter part of the article has quite a lot of interesting stuff about Chinese dishes which Klang is famous for, so worth (at least skim) reading.

In an amusing way, this thread connects to the other current one about shellfish. My mother tells me that in her youth, her father and eldest brother used to go to Klang (I imagine it was the port she was talking about) to gather a particular type of shellfish from the mangrove swamps, namely "ba1-li2-tong7" (this is the Penang Hokkien term, borrowed from Malay). The Southern Malaysian "proper" Hokkien name is "thih4-teng1-le5" (鐵釘螺), though I don't think this term is known in Penang.

http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=%22bal ... CCUQsAQwAA

As can be seen from the photos, they are a longish, "spiral" sort of shell (hence the Hokkien name "鐵釘螺"). I'm familiar with them being cooked in a rich thick curry with potatoes. When cooking them, the 'thin' end (i.e. the opposite end from where the snail 'comes out') of each shell is chopped off with a sharp blow from a chopper. The cutting off of the thin end is so that air can flow through the entire length of the shell: one puts one's lips around the 'thick' end, and then one makes a series of vigorous sucking actions; this results in the air being sucked in from the thin end, which means that the entire body of the snail shoots into one's mouth. It's very messy and noisy eating - the thick curry goes all over one's fingers, lips, and even cheeks, and the whole family sits there sucking away, so there's a constant chorus of "tspp, tspp, tspp" sounds - but oh, the taste is heavenly! .

[niuc]

Thank you, Sim! Apparently I have forgotten that!

Wow, so there is Teluk Gong in Klang too! I used to live at another Teluk Gong, Northern Jakara, for some years. It has a lot of people from Bagan(siapiapi) and Medan. Even "Bagan Seafood" in Klang... "Bagan" is used in some place names in Riau such as Bagansiapiapi, Bagan Batu, Bagan Sinembah... and apparently also used in Malaysia.

"Ba1-li2-tong7" sounds like Belitung ("Billiton"), one of the islands between Singapore and Jakarta. And according to Indonesian wikipedia, it is indeed named after the shellfish.

Thanks for the name "thih4-teng1-le5" (鐵釘螺), now I know. They were in the dish called "suh suh" (su4-su4, "sucking-sucking") at Jalan Alor, near to Berjaya Timesquare in KL.

[SimL]

Hi Niuc,

In the English Wikipedia, there are more "Bagans" in Malaysia than in Indonesia. That could be true, or just an illusion caused by the fact that English is more widely spoken in Malaysia (and hence perhaps that there are more English-speaking Malaysian Wikipedians than Indonesian ones).

Bagan Ajam (in Penang, Malaysia)
Bagan Datoh (in Perak, Malaysia)
Bagan Lalang (a beach, not a town, in Selangor, Malaysia)
Bagan Luar (in Penang, Malaysia)
Bagan Nakhoda Omar (a small village and little-known beach in Selangor , Malaysia)
Bagan Pinang (better known as Port Dickson, in Negeri Sembilan, Malaysia)
Bagan Serai (in Perak, Malaysia)
Bagan Sungai Burong (a small fishing village, in Perak , Malaysia)
---
Bagansiapiapi (in Sumatra, Indonesia)

In most of the articles, it mentions that the place is close to the sea (or is a fishing village etc). Under the "Bagan Serai" article, I found the following quote:

"The word 'Bagan' in malay means a jetty or a place of landing for some business activities."

[amhoanna]

Right, Pasang = Klang. Did I get the tones right? Pa1-sang1?

[SimL]

Hi amhoanna,

My mother says the first syllable as pa5 (for me, a low-rising tone), which I now realise is - strangely - not the sandi-tone of any tone in Hokkien. I guess it's because it's a borrowed word.

SimL

[niuc]

Apparently my mom knows Pa1-sang1! She says last time many cau2-sy1-her3 走私貨 (smuggled goods, not paying tax) came from Pasang. But I didn't remember of hearing about Pasang in Bagan.