Definitely interesting. This guy first showed up on Tâigúbāng in the late '90s, and back then he was already using his unique style of peh'oeji. Now he mostly uses hanji.
Prince of HoLoh 河洛王子
http://blog.xuite.net/princeofholoh/blog/28256702
HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Random post from the same guy, last yr
To be resurrected in 2029 in the Imperial Valley, California 92233...
By the Holok Prince, born in Husiann (Tailam), Taiwan...
Please spread the word.
Holok Nation, true lords of East Asia, saviors of the world...B"o DzunDiong NaEAn?
正是! 民族議題 互相尊重爾也
河洛民族 全東亞真主 全球救主 將由本殿 台灣 府城出身 河洛王子 在 2029 加州 帝國谷Imperial Valley, Imperial, 加利福尼亞 92233 復國
請廣宣之
To be resurrected in 2029 in the Imperial Valley, California 92233...
By the Holok Prince, born in Husiann (Tailam), Taiwan...
Please spread the word.
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Sounds like that book I saw for sale in Chungking South Road about Taiwanese being descended from Egyptians! Haha.
Doesn't it sound so much better than the more likely explanation 福佬?
Doesn't it sound so much better than the more likely explanation 福佬?
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Well, one of our regular posters was convinced that Hokkien was related to Old Norse. And before that, we had someone who believed that Hokkien was the only pure form of Chinese, Mandarin being just a bastardized sinitic underlayer, completely overwhelmed by (Mongolian, etc) invasive elements from the North and North-west.Ah-bin wrote:Sounds like that book I saw for sale in Chungking South Road about Taiwanese being descended from Egyptians!
The thing about theories which "very few other people believe" is that once in a while, they actually turn out to be true (= "a revolution in that area of science" / "paradigm change"), and there is often no way to know, in advance, whether a particular idea falls in the latter category, or is just a "crackpot theory"...
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Another "clue". I was talking to a Teochew graduate student who studies language education at a college in Swatow. Some semesters she teaches Mandarin to foreign students from Morocco, India, esp., but the biggest contingent of foreign students are Teochews from Thailand. So the topic of language learning came up. I mentioned that for me, learning "Mẳnlàmwá" (= Banlamese; the dialog was in Cantonese) has been much tougher than learning Cantonese. She acknowledged that most people felt that Banlamese/Teochew was harder to learn than Canto, adding: "And that's why my Teochew students from Thailand call Teochew 'Họklỏuwá', because U've gotta start young and họk tõu lỏu (学到老)." (boldface emphasis mine)
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Amhoanna, 讚啊 cán ä! 
In Singapore, most people think of Hokkien as rude and unrefined, but that's because they are mostly only exposed to a kind of "shallow" variant/creole. There was a Sgp Hokkien ex-colleague, upon hearing me talking to my mom on the phone, commented that my Hokkien sounded like Hakka to her. I was surprised, as I had heard some Hakka conversations of my Hakka friends in Indonesia and also on Taiwanese tv programs, and personally I felt that the way it was spoken was very different. May be she gave that comment because she couldn't understand much of it, and she knew that it was not Singapore Hokkien-Teochew or Cantonese. Some who were more exposed to Taiwanese Hokkien commented that my variant sounded like Taiwanese. So, although many people think of Hokkien as rude and unrefined, actually if we are willing to learn, we indeed may 学到老. And I myself enjoy the process very much, particularly from all of you in this forum!
Btw, it is interesting that Thai Teochews use the term Họklỏu. I have never heard this term used by Hokkiens in Indonesia/Malaysia/Singapore. I wonder if SEAsia Cantonese or Hakka refer to Hokkien and/or Teochew (both or only one of them) as Hoklo?
In Singapore, most people think of Hokkien as rude and unrefined, but that's because they are mostly only exposed to a kind of "shallow" variant/creole. There was a Sgp Hokkien ex-colleague, upon hearing me talking to my mom on the phone, commented that my Hokkien sounded like Hakka to her. I was surprised, as I had heard some Hakka conversations of my Hakka friends in Indonesia and also on Taiwanese tv programs, and personally I felt that the way it was spoken was very different. May be she gave that comment because she couldn't understand much of it, and she knew that it was not Singapore Hokkien-Teochew or Cantonese. Some who were more exposed to Taiwanese Hokkien commented that my variant sounded like Taiwanese. So, although many people think of Hokkien as rude and unrefined, actually if we are willing to learn, we indeed may 学到老. And I myself enjoy the process very much, particularly from all of you in this forum!
Btw, it is interesting that Thai Teochews use the term Họklỏu. I have never heard this term used by Hokkiens in Indonesia/Malaysia/Singapore. I wonder if SEAsia Cantonese or Hakka refer to Hokkien and/or Teochew (both or only one of them) as Hoklo?
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Wasn't it also because they have been taught and told constantly that "dialects" are inferior to the "language" Mandarin? I know Harry Lee definitely said this.In Singapore, most people think of Hokkien as rude and unrefined, but that's because they are mostly only exposed to a kind of "shallow" variant/creole.
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
I very much agree with this - not the opinion that it's rude and unrefined, of course, but that it is (partly) due to LKY. But I think it's a vicious circle, really. Educated people start having this opinion, so they stop speaking it, and that leaves less educated people / more rough people speaking it, which reinforces the opinion, making yet other educated people (or people who want to come across as educated) stop speaking it, etc, etc.Ah-bin wrote:Wasn't it also because they have been taught and told constantly that "dialects" are inferior to the "language" Mandarin? I know Harry Lee definitely said this.In Singapore, most people think of Hokkien as rude and unrefined, but that's because they are mostly only exposed to a kind of "shallow" variant/creole.
This is one of the major advantages that Penang Hokkien has in Penang. Practically all Chinese residents speak it, and people don't think of it as being "lower class". They enjoy speaking it to family members, friends, and strangers. They realise their limitations in speaking it, and know that they often have to resort to English words etc, but they still don't think of it as a "lower class" language.
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Hi Ah-bin & Sim
Yes, surely it's also because they have been taught and told constantly that "dialects" are inferior to the "language" Mandarin; that the latter is the standard, elegant, learned, etc, while the former are lowly, rude, bumpkinish, and so on. No doubt Singapore government has been doing that kind of propaganda to promote Mandarin, suppressing "dialects" usage on free-to-air tv programs and public events - except during political campaigns before general election, where suddenly we hear the MPs speaking in "dialects". However, Mandarin propaganda here is not as extreme as it was in Taiwan (I saw that on movies, not sure how true). Students here have never been fined or punished for speaking "dialects", according to my native Singaporean friends. LKY himself shut down Chinese (Mandarin) schools because they were pro-PRC, and he even had a private Hokkien teacher so he could campaign in Hokkien. However, later he began to see the importance of Chinese (read: Mandarin) and started to campaign for it as the "mother tongue" of all Chinese. I think he wanted to use it as a tool to unify Singaporean Chinese, yet regretably at the expense of other existing and older Chinese languages.
Although surely he is partly responsible for demise of the "dialects" here, he is far from being the pioneer. Nevertheless given his position and full support by the whole government, the impact has been really big. To be fair, Singaporean Chinese had been campaigning for Mandarin through Chinese schools long before the republic came into existence. It was also the case in Bagansiapiapi. My parents went to Chinese (Mandarin) schools during 1940s - 1950s, one Nationalist school, the other Communist, and neither had Hokkien lessons. The generations before them, if rich enough, were the ones who learned to read Chinese in Hokkien, but through private lessons (私塾 si•-siòk) and not in public Chinese schools. I suspect this was the case for Malaysia also, except for Cantonese may be? I wonder if Hokkien was ever taught in Chinese schools in Penang? The only SEAsia country I heard of having Hokkien in Chinese schools was the Philippines. So IMHO, the vicious circle as explained by Sim had been started long ago by some (or most) of the educated Chinese, and that became much worse with later official position.
It is great that Penang Hokkien is well alive, and hopefully will be preserved that way. I think Penang-lâng should request for Penang Hokkien to be taught as a subject of choice (may be to be chosen among other Chinese languages or even Thai, etc) in schools. I have some Penang friends in Singapore, and while they may not think of Hokkien as being "lower class", nevertheless even from them I subjectively perceive a subtle sense of Mandarin being the standard and (sometimes Cantonese also being a) better Chinese. Hopefully I am mistaken.
Yes, surely it's also because they have been taught and told constantly that "dialects" are inferior to the "language" Mandarin; that the latter is the standard, elegant, learned, etc, while the former are lowly, rude, bumpkinish, and so on. No doubt Singapore government has been doing that kind of propaganda to promote Mandarin, suppressing "dialects" usage on free-to-air tv programs and public events - except during political campaigns before general election, where suddenly we hear the MPs speaking in "dialects". However, Mandarin propaganda here is not as extreme as it was in Taiwan (I saw that on movies, not sure how true). Students here have never been fined or punished for speaking "dialects", according to my native Singaporean friends. LKY himself shut down Chinese (Mandarin) schools because they were pro-PRC, and he even had a private Hokkien teacher so he could campaign in Hokkien. However, later he began to see the importance of Chinese (read: Mandarin) and started to campaign for it as the "mother tongue" of all Chinese. I think he wanted to use it as a tool to unify Singaporean Chinese, yet regretably at the expense of other existing and older Chinese languages.
Although surely he is partly responsible for demise of the "dialects" here, he is far from being the pioneer. Nevertheless given his position and full support by the whole government, the impact has been really big. To be fair, Singaporean Chinese had been campaigning for Mandarin through Chinese schools long before the republic came into existence. It was also the case in Bagansiapiapi. My parents went to Chinese (Mandarin) schools during 1940s - 1950s, one Nationalist school, the other Communist, and neither had Hokkien lessons. The generations before them, if rich enough, were the ones who learned to read Chinese in Hokkien, but through private lessons (私塾 si•-siòk) and not in public Chinese schools. I suspect this was the case for Malaysia also, except for Cantonese may be? I wonder if Hokkien was ever taught in Chinese schools in Penang? The only SEAsia country I heard of having Hokkien in Chinese schools was the Philippines. So IMHO, the vicious circle as explained by Sim had been started long ago by some (or most) of the educated Chinese, and that became much worse with later official position.
It is great that Penang Hokkien is well alive, and hopefully will be preserved that way. I think Penang-lâng should request for Penang Hokkien to be taught as a subject of choice (may be to be chosen among other Chinese languages or even Thai, etc) in schools. I have some Penang friends in Singapore, and while they may not think of Hokkien as being "lower class", nevertheless even from them I subjectively perceive a subtle sense of Mandarin being the standard and (sometimes Cantonese also being a) better Chinese. Hopefully I am mistaken.
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Yeleixingfeng
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am
Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ
Niuc,
Sorry, you are right.
Among us youngsters, Hokkien is indeed perceived as a lower class, vulgar language. Girls speaking Hokkien were considered 'subconsciously' as being rude and disgraceful. I guess the reason Cantonese and Mandarin are politer than Hokkien, is because they have lesser voiced consonants, while Hokkien is just full of them. And, I think voiced consonants increases the possibility of spitting saliva. Haha. Makes sense in a very strange way, I think.
Sorry, you are right.
Among us youngsters, Hokkien is indeed perceived as a lower class, vulgar language. Girls speaking Hokkien were considered 'subconsciously' as being rude and disgraceful. I guess the reason Cantonese and Mandarin are politer than Hokkien, is because they have lesser voiced consonants, while Hokkien is just full of them. And, I think voiced consonants increases the possibility of spitting saliva. Haha. Makes sense in a very strange way, I think.