Benzi/Original character

[Ah-bin]

Japanese can't speak 'ng' nasal sound and a lot of ending consonants such as k,t,p, that's why all of there sound are truncated.

Here we go again..... maybe you just don't know what "truncated" means. I won't accuse you of making things up this time, just ignorance of the meaning of words.

The final -k and -t weren't "truncated" at all, they became the extra syllables -chi/tsu and -ki/-ku in Japanese, unless they were followed by certain consonants in compounds.

力 reki/ryoku
國 koku
日 nichi/jitsu (and before anyone mentions "Nihon", this is a fairly recent development from "Nippon" (still used in certain situations) which developed from nit-pon. The individual syllables became nichi and hon, but the older pronunciation of ほん with an initial p survived in the compound.

-p started as -pu, and was elided to -u after it was borrowed into Japanese.

The final -ng was the only sound that was elided to become -u. ん may be romanised as -n but it is actually a complete syllable in itself pronounced [ng], so it is actually the [n] nasal sound that Japanese have trouble with, not the [ng].


　

[xng]

That "may" be right, if 'kip' is the ONLY and DEFINITE or ABSOLUTE sound of 及 even though it's pronounced 'khap' in Cantonese. Just like 力 being 'lat' and 'lik'. If whatever found in online dictionaries or written books already conclude all the mysteries of Chinese languages, then you're right. I dare not be so certain myself. Let me be the coward, I am just sharing.

'An ni' or 'sui' have not been found so they could be non sinitic ie. from the MinYue people.

An ni has been "proposed" to be 焉爾, 云爾 in classical Chinese - based on books I read
Sui is most likely 穟 or even 秀 - again, based on books I read

And, the tone is not correct, right ? The entire 入聲 even disappears from Mandarin.

As I have mentioned several times, standard cantonese change vowel from 'i' to 'a' which is a unique sound shift only to standard cantonese. Taishanese cantonese still use 'i' vowel and so does hakka, hokkien, mandarin etc. The shift in 'i' to 'a' in standard cantonese is only a recent sound shift ie. during the past 100 years or so. We are looking for 'ancient sound' and not 'recent sound'.

If there is an alternative sound for 及 similar to 力 , it would have been listed as such, so please quote reliable dictionary with both kip and kap .

焉爾 is just an assumption/false borrowing but the sound of 焉 is 'Ien' and NOT 'An'. I purposely watch ancient drama taiwanese shows to verify this sound. Furthermore, there is no corresponding regular sound shift from either Mandarin or Cantonese. Cantonese sound is 'Yin' which maps to 'Ien' or 'Gien' in ALL cases.

Some of these are actually tai-kadai sounds. 'Ni' in thai means 'This'. I am still learning Thai but I have heard of 'an nan' (that) and 'an ni' (this), cannot confirm at this moment so don't shoot me.

Your proposed sui character, I need time to research on this. Cannot confirm yet.

Japanese can't pronounce 'k,t,p' endings because their language don't have these endings. It is just like Chinese can't pronounce 's' endings and chinese translate 's' ending to 'si' eg. Bus become Ba Si (in cantonese).

[niuc]

I don't know in others, but in my variant we have ka7 and ka4. Btw, 唐人字 Tng5-lang5-ji7 below are just what I usually use, I am not arguing whether they are 本字 or not.

ka7:
a. i1 ka7-gua2 kong2 e0 = 伊[共]我講[兮] = 他跟我說的/他告訴我的 = he is the one who told me.
b. i1 ka7-gua2 pha4 = 伊[共]我拍 = 他打我 = he hit me.
c. i1 ka7-lang0 pha4 -> i1 kang7-pha4 = 伊[共]人拍 = 他打人 = he hit someone/me/him/they etc.

ka4 = and
ly2 ka4-i1 = 汝[佮/及]伊 = 你和他 = you and him

i1 ka7-ly2 ma7 = 伊[共]汝罵 = he scold/curse you.
i1 ka4-ly2 ma7 = 伊[佮/及]汝罵 = he and you are scolding/cursing each other.

For kap4, we also use it in sa*1-kap4 [相/參][佮/及] meaning together or share/co-own. Btw my variant usually say sa*1-pha4 instead of sio1-pha4. Kap4 is also used for secret & often bad collaboration e.g. i1 ka4-in1 kap4 = he collaborates with them. Similar usage is also found in term kap4-khang1.

There is also kap4 in kap4-io8 []藥 = to buy Chinese herbal medicine that consists of many herbs; I wonder if it is the same kap4.

And for ka4, we also have sa*1-ka4 = as a variant/addition, e.g. we buy apple and orange, not only apple, that's called sa*1-ka4.

This reminds me of a "healthy" Hokkien saying:
Cia8-hy5, cia8-ba4, ma7-tio8-chai3-ka4.
食魚, 食肉, 嘛[=不也]着菜[佮/及].
Eat fish, eat meat, also must have vegetable.

Shanghainese: How does cio-kue 交關 carry the same meaning as the Modern Standard Chinese 非常? As a matter of fact, it is also used in Cantonese.

Thanks, Mark, this is interesting. 交關 kau1-kuan1 in my variant means to buy something.
着來[共]阮交關[好] tio8-lai5-ka7-gun2 kau1-kuan1 hor*0 = please come and buy something from us, ok?
I found similar definition in http://203.64.42.21/iug/ungian/SoannTen ... taihoa.asp for Taiwanese Hokkien.

Spoon in my variant is 湯匙 thng1-si5. Some understand khiau1-kiong1 [蹺/曲]羹 as soup-spoon, but many never heard of it. There is a joke about this. There was a person from Bagansiapiapi who visited his friend in Medan, when his friend asked him whether he wanted khiau1-kiong1 (or may be thau5-kiong1 as in Penang variant) "lu2 ai3-khiau1-kiong1 mai3?", he replied: "ho2, cham1 tam7-po0" (yes, put in a bit)!

The final -ng was the only sound that was elided to become -u. ん may be romanised as -n but it is actually a complete syllable in itself pronounced [ng], so it is actually the [n] nasal sound that Japanese have trouble with, not the [ng].

Ah-bin, indeed this is what I learnt & noticed.

[xng]

I don't know in others, but in my variant we have ka7 and ka4. Btw, 唐人字 Tng5-lang5-ji7 below are just what I usually use, I am not arguing whether they are 本字 or not.

I am impressed by your detailed explanation ! My utmost respect to you.


As a sidenote on jap endings: You hear 'n' endings but not 'ng' endings or even 'ng' initial consonant.

Quote from

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=193500

"All native Japanese words must end in a vowel.

You will see plenty of words that end in -n. But these are all words borrowed from Chinese.
"

[Ah-bin]

Graphically -n in most romanisations of Japanese, this final -n stands for /ɴ/, phonologically close to -ng. The two n's in Nihon actually are two different sounds - one is /n/ the other /ɴ/. That was what i was taught in a course on Japanese phonology.

/ɴ/ is a moraic nasal, fully a stop before another stop, where it becomes homorganic with that consonant, but not achieving full occlusion before fricatives or between vowels, where it is realized as a nasal vowel. Word finally before a pause, it may be realized as a uvular nasal stop, a bilabial nasal stop, or as a nasal vowel. Some analyses treat this as an abstract archiphoneme /N/; some as a coda /n/.

It's Wikipedia....on Japanese phonology.

And your source is incorrect too, Some words ending in (orthographic) -n are onomatapoeia, and are native Japanese words. Others are from languages other than Chinese: かばん,　パン,　ドンドン,　パンパン. Since your Japanese is obviously very good, I'll let you provide the translations for these words xng.

[Mark Yong]

niuc wrote:
Spoon in my variant is 湯匙 thng1-si5. Some understand khiau1-kiong1 [蹺/曲]羹 as soup-spoon, but many never heard of it.

I am also familiar with 湯匙 thng1-si5, having heard it sometimes used amongst the Teochiu speakers in Penang and Province Wellesley, and also because my wife uses it interchangeably with 頭羹 th'au-kiong.

On that note, I have to confess that I am not entirely certain that it is, in fact, 頭羹 th'ău-kiōng, as I have heard some people pronounce it as kh'ău-kiōng (same tone), too - which seems to approximate closer to your variant. So, please take the 本字 I used at face value only.

[AndrewAndrew]

On that note, I have to confess that I am not entirely certain that it is, in fact, 頭羹 th'ău-kiōng, as I have heard some people pronounce it as kh'ău-kiōng (same tone), too - which seems to approximate closer to your variant. So, please take the 本字 I used at face value only.

I know it is pronounced thau-kiong in Penang, but I thought the obvious benzi was 調羹 thiau-kiong, which has the meaning of spoon in Mandarin.

[niuc]

Now it seems clearer to me why the TLJ 羹 "broth" (ki*1) is also used to mean "spoon" (kiong1). So it's from 調羹 (to stir/move the broth/soup with a spoon??)... 原來是按呢!

[xng]

Does anybody know what it the original word for 'Hou Khang Thau' ?

I shudder everytime, 8TV display 好康頭. The middle character is wrong but I can't find the correct character.

[amhoanna]

I've seen it written as 空 by the Hoklorati. Also 空課 for khang1-khoe3. Is there really a connection? I don't know. It might not be of Sinitic origin. I wonder if there are cognates in other languages and, if so, which ones.