Another Way Out

[Ah-bin]

It is 'an1-cy5' in my variant. Not sure why huan1 becomes an1, since it is still huan1 in huan1-cio1 番椒

Do you think it might actually be a corruption of ang-cy 紅薯 instead Niuc?

[SimL]

I will try talk to the director. I have been urging him to bring the play to Penang. Besides, my team will be reproducing our Hokkien play by Dec too. That is 70% in Hokkien with Mandarin, we try to picture the broken gap between generations by the usage of language in the play.

Wow, fantastic. I look forward to all developments on this front.

I don't want to sound like some sort of nerd, but I really believe that the internet will be one of the key resources for the spreading of the "pro-Hokkien" message. With a piece of physically printed text (e.g. pamphlet, magazine/newspaper article etc), or a live performance, one can reach a certain number of people (and that's all good too!), but with the equivalent on the internet, one can reach an unimaginably greater number. Just imagine how long it would have taken for us Minnan Forum members to find one another if the net hadn't existed (it would probably never have happened), and how easily we have been able to share information up to now.

BTW, on a related topic: I've been watching "木瓜姐妹" / "881" / "The Papaya Sisters", by Royston Tan, and I *love* it. [Up to now, I am proud to say that I haven't used the English subtitles at all: I turn on the Chinese subtitles, and I pause the film with every sentence, and read / look up unknown words / characters, then play the next bit, pause again, etc.] I love the film not so much for the plot (I find it slightly disappointing that Chinese movies seem to have an obsession with tragic endings, though in this case, the plot is quite good, and is not "needlessly tragic", IMHO), but for the amount of Hokkien in it. As various of my correspondents (outside the Forum) have pointed out, the two "I Not Stupid" / "小孩不笨" films have a certain amount of Hokkien in them (definitely better than no Hokkien at all), but still, in these latter two films, the Hokkien speakers are usually portrayed in a negative light (gangsters, stupid people), or the language is used *only* for comical effect (plus the amount of Hokkien is a lot less than in "881"). In "881", this is not the case. Not only is there a lot of Hokkien, but it's used in serious, touching, dramatic situations (*and* comical ones too, which is fine, as Hokkien does lend itself well to "sarcasm"), and the characters using Hokkien are good, likeable, even very admirable people.

I guess the plays done by aokh's group are more additions to "art with a significant Hokkien component", and I applaud this most heartily.

[Mark Yong]

I watched 大頭共番薯頭 Big Head and Potato Head at the KL Performing Arts Centre last year, and really enjoyed it. I have it say it is a very good attempt at having Penang Hokkien - and Hokkien, in general - crash onto the local Malaysian stage.

That said, just some observations (hopefully taken as constructive appraisal):

While the storyline had a good depth, I felt that the that the vocabulary was a bit limited, which led to the actual message of the story being somewhat stifled until much later. A broader vocabulary (beyond the repeated use of "Lû siâu, éh!") would do more justice to the storyline. With the general target audience knowing Hokkien, and with subtitles available to aid the non-Hokkien speaking audience, I believe there should be little "loss in translation".

I suppose part of the reason could be due to the script being written in English, and the actors having to translate their lines on-the-fly - which can be difficult given that the two languages are so different. As a result, it may be difficult for them to spontaneously come up with colourful Penang Hokkien trasliterations of their lines (and I know from experience that in the hands of a fluent uncle or aunty, Penang Hokkien can be rather colourful and punchy!) that do not have equivalents in English. A Hokkien script written in Chinese and/or 白話字 Pæq-Uă-Jĭ (with English transliterations included as footnotes, if required) would help to tighten up the dialogue.

That said, it was a truly good attempt, and hopefully one that will set the wheels in motion for more great Penang Hokkien stage plays to come!

[niuc]

No, hiam1-cio1 is what they call it in Singapore. We use huan1-cio1. We normally say luah8 instead of hiam1, because we can distinguish between luah8 and juah8.

Thanks, Andrew. So our variants do share some vocabs (vs Singapore)! Although my variant barely can differentiate lua8 from jua8 (usually becomes dua8 or lua8), we still use lua8 instead of hiam1. Hiam1 in my variant means pungent smell e.g. chau3-hiam1-hiam1. From another forum I learned that these terms and usage in Bagansiapiapi match its origin i.e. Tang5-ua*1 (Tong-an) Hokkien variant in China, except they call huan1-cio1 as huan1-kiu*1 番薑.

Nice to see that niuc's variant somewhat matches this usage too.

Indeed, Sim. About kan1-tang1, in fact in Bagan I never heard any other terms, not even more native sounding 'ho1-lan1-cy5'.

Do you think it might actually be a corruption of ang-cy 紅薯 instead Niuc?

Hmmm... may be, Ah-bin. It is probable but the tone is a bit off. Another probability is "lazy pronunciation" of han1-cy5, but this needs to trace why huan1 becames han1. However, this is not the only "corrupted" pronunciation in my variant, another common one is sin7-lang5 or sian7-lang5 which was from sian7-thang5 善蟲 for house lizard/gecko. What is it called in Penang Hokkien?

[SimL]

another common one is sin7-lang5 or sian7-lang5 which was from sian7-thang5 善蟲 for house lizard/gecko. What is it called in Penang Hokkien?

In Penang Hokkien, it's "ci1-cah8" , though sin7-thang5 is equally commonly used. Interesting to see that we Penangites have the "-ia-" -> "-i-" simplification too. More fuel for Mark's creole hypothesis!

[Mark Yong]

Actually, I first learned 'lizard' in Penang as 蟮蟲 sin7-th'ang5, before picking up the Malay-originated 'cicak' alternative. And die-hard purist that I am, you can guess which one I tend to use!

Here are a couple of links on it:
http://taigi-pahkho.wikia.com/wiki/%E8% ... 2%E4%BB%94
http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/holodict/resul ... c03&no=010

Another one whose 本字 eludes me is 'scorpion' - ch’iauⁿ7-ngæh5. Not to be confused with 蜈蚣 giaⁿ-kang 'centipede'.

[niuc]

Thanks, Sim, so Penang's sin7-thang5 is much closer to "original" sian7-thang5 than Bagan's sin7/sian7-lang5. At least it is still evident to be a 'thang5'. Not sure why it became 'lang5' in Bagansiapiapi, as they didn't look more humane (lang5) there!

Btw ho1-lan1-cy5 should be ho5-lan1-cy5. Sorry for the typo.

Thanks, Mark, for the correct TLJ 蟮蟲, also for the great links. Glad to know that there is Hokkien wiki not only in POJ but also in TLJ. Scorpion in my variant, from what I heard, is chiu*7-kiat4, but may be chiu*7-giat4. Online dictionaries list giat4 = 蠍 (lit: hiat4). I suspect chiu*7 here may be 象... does scorpion's tail remind us of elephant? hmmm... do I stretch it too far? hehe...

[Mark Yong]

Hi, niuc,

My apologies, I just realised you actually addressed this 'scorpion' topic before:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2091&start=45



Anyway, thanks again for that. Comparing the Bagansiapiapi variant with the Penang variant strongly suggests that they share the same character (though, how Penang ended up with the ng- initial and losing the -t ending mystifies me)- I would be inclined to accept 象蠍 as strong candidate TLJ.

Cheers,
Mark

[SimL]

... how Penang ended up with the ng- initial and losing the -t ending mystifies me ...

My initial thought was this: If it *is* the same character (which is entirely plausible), then perhaps it comes from "folk etymology". Scorpions have two huge pincers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpions, and "ngEh8" could then have been used, as a reference to the pincers. [Actually, "(small) elephant with pincers" makes total sense to me, so I'm quite happy with the 象 too.]

But then I noticed that you wrote "ngæh5'', which made me realise that it's strange, as ru-tone words don't normally have tone-5. Do you say it with a rising-tone in "scorpion"? (I have to ask, because, although I'm very familiar with the word 蜈蚣 for 'centipede', I didn't know the word for "scorpion". This is probably because we occasionally saw centipedes in the wild when I was young, but never scorpions.) [BTW, I pronounce it without nasalization - gia-kang (= "take work" or "take the male" !)]

[amhoanna]

First, to answer the million-dollar question... Sweet potatoes are called han5-ci5 in Taiwan. There is a han5-cy5 (back unrounded "y") regional pronunciation (older folks in the hardcore Coanciu areas). Also a han5-cu5 pronunciation that I don't think I've ever heard.

The term I Iearned for POTATO is ma2-leng5-ci5. This is no doubt a Mandarism and I'm not sure how widespread it is. In any case, people in TW seem to switch to Mandarin when they smell potatoes. Something about how the presence of "modern vegetables" makes them temporarily unable to speak Hoklo. A friend of mine used the word hoan1-ci5 once in a joke. If the word exists in general, it probably refers to taters. What was the joke? Well, I asked her, if pre-1945 Han "peranakans" are called han5-ci5, and post-'45 Han "sinkheh" are called ou1-a2 (taro), then what about people from Quemoy? She said they were ou1-a2-han5-ci5. (This term is also used a lot to refer to people with one han5-ci5 parent and one ou1-a2 parent.) Then I asked her what about aborigines, and she said they're hoan1-ci5

I was on Alisan for a few days. It was funny how all the Tnglang (including myself) always paused before saying "goancubin". The word that wanted to come out was always "hoanna". I've also been packing and getting ready to move, so I'll be under southern skies in a few days.