No worry, Ah-bin, it is good to have it in Penang style as there are much more Penangites. Anyway literary pronunciation differs little from one to another variant.
You are right that many don't know the readings. It seems that more know about 說服 than 句讀.
Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Here is the final section! A New Year's present from me to all lovers of Hokkien. I hope I haven't made any mistakes in this one.
昔仲尼 師項橐 Sek Tiong-nî, su hāng Thok,
古聖賢 尚勤學 Kó• sèng hiân, siōng khîn hák.
趙中令 讀魯論 Tiō Tiong-lēng, thók Ló•-Lūn,
彼既仕 學且勤 Pí kì sū, hák chhiáⁿ khîn.
披蒲編 削竹簡 Phi pó• phian, siat tiok kán,
彼無書 且知勉 Pí bû su, chhiáⁿ ti bián.
頭懸梁 錐刺股 Thô• hiân liâng, chui chhì kó•,
彼不教 自勤苦 Pú put kàu, chū khîn khó•.
如囊螢 如映雪 Jû lông êng, jû èng soat,
家雖貧 學不輟 Ka sui pîn, hák put toat.
如負薪 如掛角 Jû hū sin, jû kòa kak,
身雖勞 猶苦卓 Sin sui lô, iû khó• tok.
蘇老泉 二十七 So• Ló-choân, jī síp chhit,
始發憤 讀書籍 Sí hoat hún, thók su chék.
彼既老 猶悔遲 Pí kì ló, iû hóe tî,
爾小生 宜早思 Ní siáu seng, gî chó su.
若梁灝 八十二 Jiók Liâng Hō, pat síp jī,
對大廷 魁多士 Tùi tāi têng, khoe to sū.
彼既成 眾稱異 Pí kì sêng, chiòng chheng īⁿ,
爾小生 宜立志 Ní siáu seng, gî líp chì.
瑩八歲 能詠詩 Êng pat sòe, lêng ēng si,
泌七歲 能賦棋 Pì chhit sòe, lêng hù kî.
彼穎悟 人稱奇 Pí éng gō•. Jîn chheng kî,
爾幼學 當效之 Ní iù hák, tong hāu chi.
蔡文姬 能辨琴 Chhài Bûn-ki, lêng piān khîm,
謝道韞 能詠吟 Siā Tō-ùn, lêng ēng gîm.
彼女子 且聰敏 Pí lú chú, chhiáⁿ chhong bín,
爾男子 當自警 Ní lâm chú tong chū kéng.
唐劉晏 方七歲 Tông Liû Àn, hong chhit sòe,
舉神童 作正字 Kú sîn tông, chok chèng jū.
彼雖幼 身己仕 Pí sui iù, sin í sū,
爾幼學 勉而致 Ní iù hák, bián jî tì.
有為者 亦若是 Iú ûi chiá, ék jiók sī.
犬守夜 雞司晨 Khián siú iā, ke su sîn,
苟不學 曷為人 Kó• put hák, at ûi jîn?
蠶吐絲 蜂釀蜜 Chhâm thò• si, hong jiáng bít,
人不學 不如物 Jîn put hák, put jû bút.
幼而學 壯而行 Iù jî hák, chông jî hêng,
上致君 下澤民 Siāng tì kun, hā ték bîn.
揚名聲 顯父母 Iâng bêng seng, hián hū bó,
光於前 裕於後 Kong u chiân, sûi u hō•,
人遺子 金滿籯 Jîn ûi chú, kim boán êng,
我教子 惟一經 Ngó• kàu chú, î it keng.
勤有功 戲無益 Khîn iú kong, hì bû ek,
戒之哉 宜勉力 Kài chi chai, gî bián lék.
It's interesting how much of this text has passed into popular lore 頭懸梁 Thô• hiân liâng "head hanging from the beam" refers to a story Sim told me on a walk through Amsterdam, about a man who was so keen on study that he tied his hair up to a beam above him to keep from nodding off to sleep. I wonder if the relative who told him had also memorised the Sam Chu Keng, or had heard the story from someone who had?
If you memorise all of this, it is possible to read a lot of simple Classical Chinese out in the literary pronunciation. A few characters are missing from the first part of the Analects:
學而時習之。不亦說乎。 Hák jî sî síp chi, put ék oát ho•?
有朋自遠方來。不亦. 樂乎。 Iú pêng chū oán hong lâi, put ék lók ho•?
My next project is the Chhian Chu Bun 千字文....
昔仲尼 師項橐 Sek Tiong-nî, su hāng Thok,
古聖賢 尚勤學 Kó• sèng hiân, siōng khîn hák.
趙中令 讀魯論 Tiō Tiong-lēng, thók Ló•-Lūn,
彼既仕 學且勤 Pí kì sū, hák chhiáⁿ khîn.
披蒲編 削竹簡 Phi pó• phian, siat tiok kán,
彼無書 且知勉 Pí bû su, chhiáⁿ ti bián.
頭懸梁 錐刺股 Thô• hiân liâng, chui chhì kó•,
彼不教 自勤苦 Pú put kàu, chū khîn khó•.
如囊螢 如映雪 Jû lông êng, jû èng soat,
家雖貧 學不輟 Ka sui pîn, hák put toat.
如負薪 如掛角 Jû hū sin, jû kòa kak,
身雖勞 猶苦卓 Sin sui lô, iû khó• tok.
蘇老泉 二十七 So• Ló-choân, jī síp chhit,
始發憤 讀書籍 Sí hoat hún, thók su chék.
彼既老 猶悔遲 Pí kì ló, iû hóe tî,
爾小生 宜早思 Ní siáu seng, gî chó su.
若梁灝 八十二 Jiók Liâng Hō, pat síp jī,
對大廷 魁多士 Tùi tāi têng, khoe to sū.
彼既成 眾稱異 Pí kì sêng, chiòng chheng īⁿ,
爾小生 宜立志 Ní siáu seng, gî líp chì.
瑩八歲 能詠詩 Êng pat sòe, lêng ēng si,
泌七歲 能賦棋 Pì chhit sòe, lêng hù kî.
彼穎悟 人稱奇 Pí éng gō•. Jîn chheng kî,
爾幼學 當效之 Ní iù hák, tong hāu chi.
蔡文姬 能辨琴 Chhài Bûn-ki, lêng piān khîm,
謝道韞 能詠吟 Siā Tō-ùn, lêng ēng gîm.
彼女子 且聰敏 Pí lú chú, chhiáⁿ chhong bín,
爾男子 當自警 Ní lâm chú tong chū kéng.
唐劉晏 方七歲 Tông Liû Àn, hong chhit sòe,
舉神童 作正字 Kú sîn tông, chok chèng jū.
彼雖幼 身己仕 Pí sui iù, sin í sū,
爾幼學 勉而致 Ní iù hák, bián jî tì.
有為者 亦若是 Iú ûi chiá, ék jiók sī.
犬守夜 雞司晨 Khián siú iā, ke su sîn,
苟不學 曷為人 Kó• put hák, at ûi jîn?
蠶吐絲 蜂釀蜜 Chhâm thò• si, hong jiáng bít,
人不學 不如物 Jîn put hák, put jû bút.
幼而學 壯而行 Iù jî hák, chông jî hêng,
上致君 下澤民 Siāng tì kun, hā ték bîn.
揚名聲 顯父母 Iâng bêng seng, hián hū bó,
光於前 裕於後 Kong u chiân, sûi u hō•,
人遺子 金滿籯 Jîn ûi chú, kim boán êng,
我教子 惟一經 Ngó• kàu chú, î it keng.
勤有功 戲無益 Khîn iú kong, hì bû ek,
戒之哉 宜勉力 Kài chi chai, gî bián lék.
It's interesting how much of this text has passed into popular lore 頭懸梁 Thô• hiân liâng "head hanging from the beam" refers to a story Sim told me on a walk through Amsterdam, about a man who was so keen on study that he tied his hair up to a beam above him to keep from nodding off to sleep. I wonder if the relative who told him had also memorised the Sam Chu Keng, or had heard the story from someone who had?
If you memorise all of this, it is possible to read a lot of simple Classical Chinese out in the literary pronunciation. A few characters are missing from the first part of the Analects:
學而時習之。不亦說乎。 Hák jî sî síp chi, put ék oát ho•?
有朋自遠方來。不亦. 樂乎。 Iú pêng chū oán hong lâi, put ék lók ho•?
My next project is the Chhian Chu Bun 千字文....
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Mark kindly provided me with a link containing Herbert Giles' translation. I might put them all together some time and have a stab at a colloquial Penang Hokkien explanation of the text too.
http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/mulu/szj.html
Another project is the listing of cognates in the colloquial for the whole text.
e.g. 遠 oán = hūiⁿ 教 kàu = kà 初 chho• = che 學 hák = óh 有 iú = ū 五 ngó• = gō• etc.
http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/mulu/szj.html
Another project is the listing of cognates in the colloquial for the whole text.
e.g. 遠 oán = hūiⁿ 教 kàu = kà 初 chho• = che 學 hák = óh 有 iú = ū 五 ngó• = gō• etc.
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
I've been a bit suspicious about the reading "gut" provided in my text for 迄 for a few weeks, it has a initial g-, meaning it should be 陽入 (gút) only colloquial words of obscure origin break these rules (like bah 肉 which has a semi-muddy initial and an 陰入tone). I think my text has some errors.
I've checked in the Chiu dictionary and have found it transcribed "hit", so I've gone into the second section
蜀魏吳 爭漢鼎 Gūi Siók Gô•, cheng Hàn téng,
號三國 迄兩晉 hō Sam kok, gut Liáng Chìn.
and corrected it to
"hit Liáng Chìn." apologies to anyone who has memorised the incorrect reading!
I've checked in the Chiu dictionary and have found it transcribed "hit", so I've gone into the second section
蜀魏吳 爭漢鼎 Gūi Siók Gô•, cheng Hàn téng,
號三國 迄兩晉 hō Sam kok, gut Liáng Chìn.
and corrected it to
"hit Liáng Chìn." apologies to anyone who has memorised the incorrect reading!
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Sorry, meant to respond to this when it was first posted, but forgot.Ah-bin wrote:It's interesting how much of this text has passed into popular lore 頭懸梁 Thô• hiân liâng "head hanging from the beam" refers to a story Sim told me on a walk through Amsterdam, about a man who was so keen on study that he tied his hair up to a beam above him to keep from nodding off to sleep. I wonder if the relative who told him had also memorised the Sam Chu Keng, or had heard the story from someone who had?
Yes, indeed, I shared this story with Ah-bin when he was here in Amsterdam, to convey to him how many Chinese placed a great value in education and academic success. (Well, strictly speaking, more "to wake him up, if he nodded off, because the head would be jerked violently upwards again, each time he fell asleep, as it was attached to the ceiling by the "thau5-cang1".)
I may also have told Ah-bin that the most common words which my interstate uncles and aunts would say to me, when they were going back home after visiting us for Chinese New Year (or after any other such interstate visit actually) was the admonishment: "Study hard!" - usually in that sort of colloquial Malaysian English mix of "Simmy, study hard, haN5!", or "Eh, Simmy, study hard, cai-(b)o!" (Yeah, they called me "Simmy" then, and still do, which I now find awful, but I can't break them of the habit! ). Of course, my own parents would say the same thing to my cousins, as they were leaving (the children of their siblings). Again, this shows the emphasis placed on study and learning in Chinese society - I can hardly imagine Western adults saying that to their nephews and nieces, as a parting.
The other story I got told as a child was of the examination candidate in Imperial China who found that he couldn't write his exam with his mao2-bi3 (either he'd forgotten to bring it, or he'd forgotten to bring his ink, or lost them, or whatever). He was desperate, because - once the examination had started - each candidate was locked into his "cell", until the end of the examination. So, he chewed the end of his little finger off, and with the bleeding tip, wrote his exam . Of course, all us little boys were really awed by this story: how dedicated that ancient Chinese scholar was, that he'd do such an awful thing, in order to try and pass his exam. THAT showed how much Chinese respected "learning and academic success"!
I'm curious to know if any other Forum members heard either of these stories (or any others relating to the same theme) when they were young? Or, indeed, if their uncles and aunts ever said something like "study hard!" to them, on parting. (I'm probably the oldest Forum member here , so this sort of thing might have already died out by the time you guys were going to school.)
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Hi Sim
Same as yours, many relatives would asked about our study and told us to study hard. In fact I found myself telling my nephew and niece the same!
I never heard of the thau5-cang1 story as a child but I saw it on some movies. A good way to keep awake, I would say. The story about using blood to write sounds familiar but may be I mix it up with some (martial arts) movie scenes where the dying victims used their own blood to write. Regardless, generally it is true that Chinese put a great emphasis on study and learning as a way to achieve better future. Surely there are some parents who don’t really care if their children study hard enough or not, but generally even or especially those who do hard labour want to make sure that their children are studying hard to escape the hardship they are now bearing. In Bagansiapiapi, I remember that children were often told that if they didn’t study hard, they had to pia*3-sam1-pa1 / pia*3-pun3-so3 (collecting garbage) or even pia*3-sai2 when they grew up.
IMHO, it was a great achievement in ancient China that commoners could become ministers if they could top imperial examination. I am not sure about other ancient civilisations but in ancient India (another great civilization that actually has big impact on Chinese via Buddhism) those from lowest castes could never dream of that.
Same as yours, many relatives would asked about our study and told us to study hard. In fact I found myself telling my nephew and niece the same!
I never heard of the thau5-cang1 story as a child but I saw it on some movies. A good way to keep awake, I would say. The story about using blood to write sounds familiar but may be I mix it up with some (martial arts) movie scenes where the dying victims used their own blood to write. Regardless, generally it is true that Chinese put a great emphasis on study and learning as a way to achieve better future. Surely there are some parents who don’t really care if their children study hard enough or not, but generally even or especially those who do hard labour want to make sure that their children are studying hard to escape the hardship they are now bearing. In Bagansiapiapi, I remember that children were often told that if they didn’t study hard, they had to pia*3-sam1-pa1 / pia*3-pun3-so3 (collecting garbage) or even pia*3-sai2 when they grew up.
IMHO, it was a great achievement in ancient China that commoners could become ministers if they could top imperial examination. I am not sure about other ancient civilisations but in ancient India (another great civilization that actually has big impact on Chinese via Buddhism) those from lowest castes could never dream of that.
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
I guess this is why "East Asian" kids in the USA have the reputation of academic excellent and achievement.niuc wrote:Regardless, generally it is true that Chinese put a great emphasis on study and learning as a way to achieve better future.
Guess that part of Chinese culture is alive and well then .niuc wrote:In fact I found myself telling my nephew and niece the same!
Ah! The equivalent in my youth (it was always said in English) was "you'll end up digging holes in the road".niuc wrote:In Bagansiapiapi, I remember that children were often told that if they didn’t study hard, they had to pia*3-sam1-pa1 / pia*3-pun3-so3 (collecting garbage) or even pia*3-sai2 when they grew up.
This is certainly true, and I think that this is something which Chinese can justifiably feel "proud" of. I read somewhere (a long time ago), that the present exam system practiced throughout the Western world was in fact based on the Chinese imperial examination system, which they copied and introduced into their own society at a time when it had only "patronage through nobility" as a means of moving up in society (no idea how true that is). And I also think that of all the "pre-modern" civilizations, the Chinese one probably was one of the best in terms of promotion on the basis of merit.niuc wrote:IMHO, it was a great achievement in ancient China that commoners could become ministers if they could top imperial examination. I am not sure about other ancient civilisations but in ancient India (another great civilization that actually has big impact on Chinese via Buddhism) those from lowest castes could never dream of that.
Still, I've always felt that our "pride" in this should to be "toned down" a little bit, in terms of how good it really was. In practice, a huge amount of time was needed to master the classics, to the level needed for rising in the examination system, so it was mostly only the leisured classes (i.e. the children of people who were already members of the literati) who could achieve this. Of course, once in a while, such a family might spot a very intelligent kid of one of their tenant farmers, and feel inspired to sponsor him along such a path - and quite a number of kids from a merchant background would have risen through the ranks of the scholar class - but still, I think that many very intelligent peasant children probably never would have been able to make it.
By saying this, I'm not trying to detract from your basic point, niuc (as shown by what I say in the 1st of the 3 paragraphs here on this topic). I see a parallel to the US, where it is part of the "national ethos" that anyone can succeed in business, if they have enough determination, or anyone can become President, if they have have the right qualities. In reality, it's usually the children of the middle or upper classes who really succeed, and most presidents have come from privileged backgrounds (and need millions of dollars from sponsors (who then have to be paid back with political or other favours)). Undoubtedly, there are quite a number of Americans from impoverished backgrounds who do make it big in life, but there are also a huge number who will be condemned to spend the rest of their lives in the ghettos. But here too, I don't want to detract from the positiveness of *having* such a "national ethos" or consciousness. It means that the *idea of the possibility* of rising from very poor or humble beginnings exists, and that in itself is important. I just want to say that I think that (both in the present day USA, as in Ancient China), in reality, it often wasn't as positive as it might seem. This is, nevertheless, indeed still many times better than a caste system, which locks one into a particular position, irrespective of one's abilities.
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Hi Sim
Thanks a lot for your much more detailed, balanced and accurate presentation! I totally agree with you.
Not to disagree, but as additional point: I think beside kind sponsors/benefactors (貴人 kui3-jin5), some poor people did work very hard to send their children to school. Unfortunately, as you have noted, most were not that "lucky", having difficulties even to feed their family. Among that minority we find Mencius' noble mother, who is mentioned in "Sam Chu Keng", to quote Ah-bin's posting:
Thanks a lot for your much more detailed, balanced and accurate presentation! I totally agree with you.
Not to disagree, but as additional point: I think beside kind sponsors/benefactors (貴人 kui3-jin5), some poor people did work very hard to send their children to school. Unfortunately, as you have noted, most were not that "lucky", having difficulties even to feed their family. Among that minority we find Mencius' noble mother, who is mentioned in "Sam Chu Keng", to quote Ah-bin's posting:
While we feel "possitive pride" for this practice of ancient China, surely we also feel the same for great achievements of any other cultures e.g. ancient Egyptian pyramids, ancient Israelites/Mosaic laws (e.g. release of debts and slaves on the 7th year), ancient Greek democracy, Mayan calendar etc. So no worry that we are to be misunderstood as "Chinese chauvinists"!昔孟母 擇鄰處 Sek bēng bú, ték lîn chhú.
子不學 斷機杼 Chú put hák, toān ki thú.
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Hi niuc,niuc wrote:While we feel "possitive pride" for this practice of ancient China, surely we also feel the same for great achievements of any other cultures e.g. ancient Egyptian pyramids, ancient Israelites/Mosaic laws (e.g. release of debts and slaves on the 7th year), ancient Greek democracy, Mayan calendar etc.
Wow, I think this makes you VERY much a citizen-of-the-world! I have to admit that I'm (slightly) more "chauvinistic" than that. I'm *IMPRESSED* by Greek democracy, Western Science, European cathedrals, Angkor Wat, Borobudur, etc, but I mostly feel "pride" for only "Chinese" (or Baba!) achievements, because I feel part of that tradition. I was challenged about this attitude by a friend once. Not that he attacked ME personally on the position, but he questioned it at a more abstract level. He himself is German, but he felt no particular "pride" at the achievements of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Kant, Wittgenstein, etc. His approach was that he only felt justified to "feel pride" for something he personally had created - a well-written essay, a nicely built garden shed, etc. Just because some other German wrote some great music was no reason for HIM to "feel pride" (in his opinion). This makes a lot of sense to me too, actually. In a similar way, no individual German alive today needs to "feel shame" at what was done in Germany from 1935 to 1945. Almost no one alive today was in a position to influence the course of events at that time, so there is no blame to be attached to them personally. I guess that's the other side of the coin of the "feel pride" thing. That too makes perfect sense to me. [I seem to recall you said something similar too a while back niuc - perhaps something like: "in as much as we all can feel pride at any human cultural achievements, we can all also feel dismay at the depths of human cruelty and barbarism" (?, but I may be remembering incorrectly).]
But, having accepted his argument in a logical sense, I nevertheless - as mentioned at the start of this reply - feel *some* pride at Chinese cultural achievements (and not for non-Chinese ones). But again (and I've said this a number of times in the past), not an "arrogant", "*we* were sipping tea from fine porcelain while you people were still biting bits of burnt flesh off a large leg of pork, with dogs under the table" type of pride (hopefully).
Re: Sam Chu Keng 三字經
Hi Sim
Thanks again for your well-thought response, as usual! I think I can understand (and even agree, at least to certain degree with) you and also your German friend. IMHO, your & your friend's differences are typical of Eastern vs Western view; the Eastern puts emphasis on communality and the Western individuality. This is of course a generalization, as individuality is growing fast among "Easterners" too. Personally my view is that both communality and individuality are needed and useful, and need to be balanced. If I understand you correctly, this is yours (and most people's?) too, right?
Thanks again for your well-thought response, as usual! I think I can understand (and even agree, at least to certain degree with) you and also your German friend. IMHO, your & your friend's differences are typical of Eastern vs Western view; the Eastern puts emphasis on communality and the Western individuality. This is of course a generalization, as individuality is growing fast among "Easterners" too. Personally my view is that both communality and individuality are needed and useful, and need to be balanced. If I understand you correctly, this is yours (and most people's?) too, right?
Sorry, I can't remember. Nevertheless, it does accurately describe my view! This is most probably due to my belief in the oneness of humanity. However, your view is very logical, and perfectly understandable. Surely yours is very far from that wrong type of pride!"in as much as we all can feel pride at any human cultural achievements, we can all also feel dismay at the depths of human cruelty and barbarism"