Hoklo (Hokkien-Teochew) in Thai Land, reports from the field

[xng]

"/ə/ might be trickier business, but I'm guessing the sound changes went on in lockstep. The Coânciu vowel system is probably closest to the "proto-Hoklo" system. As a historical thing, I get the feeling that maybe Coânciu is an "older" form of Hoklo, whereas Ciangciu Hoklo got its start in the Tn̂g era from a Coânciu base, with a mass infusion of Northern hoanná-fighters ... as well as hoanná converting to Hàn identities en masse."

Do you have any link to the origin between cuanciu and ciangciu ?

I am not sure how accurate this is,.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokkien#History

It states that cuanciu is a language formed during the Jin dynasty , whereas ciangciu is from tang dynasty.

[amhoanna]

Sim, Niuc, kámsiā línlâng ê kó͘lē! Languages were meant to be used, and abused. Thanks for the links and stories, Xng.

I still can't get over how "Chinese" Bangkok is! It's like a Singapore that got its own country to tap into, kóng khah hóthiaⁿ leh...

I picked up a copy of the Sèkài Ji̍tpò a few days ago ... in a 7-11!

I flipped to the business section. There was a listing of Thai stocks. 90% of the companies listed were listed in full Chinese, and most of these names were full-on Chinese-style names, not sinicizations of Sanskrit or Tai-Kadai or European names. For example, Siam Commercial Bank is Hoēsiong Gûnhông (sorry, can't type Tn̂glângjī today). Hoē is the same hoē as in Hūihong (HSBC), siong is business. (OK, I'm not sure if it's hoē or hūi.) But I've never seen that name displayed on a branch marquee or anywhere. It's like it's "behind the scenes".

Walking the streets, it's rare to hear any Sino language spoken, unless it's people from other countries. Now Yaowarat might be an exception. But even there the language you hear is overwhelmingly Siamese. But Chinese is written everywhere, on everything! Probably almost to the same extent as Singapore. It's like there's a huge invisible population of Chinese readers. (I came across something similar in Davao, on Mindanao. This one dep't store had a whole row of cookbooks in Chinese.) And almost all of this is in traditional characters. Every other ASEAN port has gone simplified to some extent, but Bangkok hardly.

Mandarin is widespread in Bangkok, for sure. I get the feeling that it's gonna get more so in the next 10, 20 yrs, and it's not just gonna be Teochews and Hakkas "remembering" their national tongue. Bangkokites of all ethnic persuasions will be in on it.

OK, goá citmá lâng tī "the islands" ah, better go reactivate my Malay-Indo.

As for speaking Thai, I speak a little. It should be real easy for anybody that speaks both Hokkien and Cantonese. No, speaking English in Thailand doesn't always work on its own. It works much better if U pull out your wallet.

[xng]

I still can't get over how "Chinese" Bangkok is! It's like a Singapore that got its own country to tap into, kóng khah hóthiaⁿ leh...

The degree of 'chinese' in bangkok is nowhere near the level of Singapore/Malaysia. It is mostly confined to Chinatown, Bangkok. I cannot rely on my spoken Chinese or English to come to a comfortable degree of conversation. Even in chinese restaurants in bangkok, I can only resort to 'finger pointing' the menu and can't get special customised orders.

In Singapore/Malaysia you can see chinese signboards on every major town (not confined to chinatown) and hear chinese spoken nearly everywhere and chinese newspaper can be sold everywhere including 7-11.

By the way, have you been to Malaysia ? And which towns ? What was your reaction to all these 'chineseness' in a foreign country other than Greater China ?

[amhoanna]

By the way, have you been to Malaysia ? And which towns ? What was your reaction to all these 'chineseness' in a foreign country other than Greater China ?

True, S'pore and most M'sian cities are Han in ways that Bangkok is not. I think it's cool when a M'sian of any ethnic bkgrd can speak a handful of Sino languages AND one or more Austronesian languages, fluently. I think it's cool as hell that Oulangga (Rajakumara) and Phang Xiaoqiao sing in Hokkien.

The degree of 'chinese' in bangkok is nowhere near the level of Singapore/Malaysia. It is mostly confined to Chinatown, Bangkok. I cannot rely on my spoken Chinese or English to come to a comfortable degree of conversation.

Interesting thing U point out indirectly.

[xng]

Interesting thing U point out indirectly.

It is truly disappointing because everytime I switch on the TV in bangkok's hotel room, I can't find a single channel in chinese. The channels are mostly in Thai, with one channel in japanese and some English channels. It seems that the japanese have more influence in Thailand.

In Malaysia, you can find free TV to air Mandarin, cantonese and hokkien shows, there are also paid TV channels in those 3 languages. That's why a lot of foreign workers from China 'feel more at home' while in Msia. Unfortunately, not many taiwanese come to Malaysia to visit as compared to Thailand and Singapore.

[amhoanna]

Happy Songkraan!

Not too much of interest since leaving Jiáu'a.

The immigration officer at the airport in Thô'áhn̂g (Tâi'oân) addressed me in Hoklo when I arrived there, definitely a first. Maybe my orange batik shirt "signalled" that I was a Hoklophone.

Back in Bangkok a.k.a. Thàikiaⁿ. When dialog in Siamese breaks down, some will talk to me in bits and pieces of Cantonese, esp in Baangrak (Baang-rak), which is a Canto neighborhood. I like being spoken to in Canto. I guess it makes me feel like a "perfect stranger". Others, esp. the light-skinned and Chinese-featured, get impatient and insist on English. Contrast with Jogja and Bali: some Indonesians switched to Eng on me, but always encouraged my efforts to speak b. Indo, whereas many Bangkok-lâng have no patience for foreigners getting tongue-tied over Siamese sentences.

Generally I don't try switching to Hoklo anymore unless it's inside a business and there are Hoklo cues. Even then, surprisingly few people can speak Teochew/Hoklo. Absolutely no one in Thailand has ever spoken to me in TC first, i.e. before I start talking Hoklo. I should add though that I don't hang around Yaowarat.

When I first got here this time around, I was wired to speak all Malay (Indo) all the time. I would catch myself with my mouth open and Malay words about to come out. Then my brain would call up Vietnamese words. Well-intentioned, but no good. A hell of a strain too since I speak all of these languages so poorly. One interesting dimension is that there are actually thousands upon thousands of Malay spkrs in Bangkok, many (or all?) of the women marked by their clothing.

I made a side trip to Chanthaburi yesterday. 尖竹汶, the durian capital of the world, is pretty cosmopolitan for a country town. Siamese is the main language. There's a lot of VNese too. I rented a bike from a Siamese-VNese (mixed) guy that spoke fluent VNese and was very proud of it. This made communication a little easier for me (see last paragraph). He said only 5% of the town spoke VNese. As in Bangkok, there's abundant Tn̂glâng, I'm guessing mostly Teochew and "Hainamese". According to what I've read, there's another major tribe here, the Shan, who made the local gemstone industry into what it is, or has been. Then U have all the Indian Ocean and African traders in town for the stones. The motorbike acek's wife, who didn't speak VNese, was entertained by my efforts to speak both Siamese and VNese. She stated flatly that Chanthaburi gets no visitors from TW. ... Mandarin education is widespread in Chanthaburi. Even people who don't look like Tn̂glâng may have learned how to speak AND READ some Mandarin. Maybe a Sabah situation?

Now, I didn't spend any time in Sừsúi except in transit. In 180º contrast to the bus terminal, the airport was packed with sure-fire, loaded-looking (hógia̍h) sinkheh Tn̂glâng. Tapo͘ and cabó͘, they all had pale skin ... thanks to mansions, servants, drivers, and malls? Their mannerisms, expressions, and hairstyles were 100% similar to similar groups in Manila, Cebu, L.A. and elsewhere, i.e. any place where Hokkiens are a business-class minority. I just looked at these people and thought to myself, "And they speak Javanese at home? No way!!"

Soon enough, before boarding, I met a retired local Tn̂glâng couple. In their mannerisms, outlooks and religious beliefs (Christian), they were identical to my parents' friends in the U.S. Only difference was, they spoke b. Indo instead of Mando and Canto or Hoklo. They were Hokkien, but didn't seem to know for sure if their parents spoke Hoklo or not. They said they only used b. Jawa w/ their servants and w/ uneducated local people who couldn't function in Malay; in fact, the only form of b. Jawa they spoke was the low form, which would be socially incorrect in most situations. Like educated Chinese everywhere, they had a taste for speaking English. Since the mister didn't speak English that well, tho -- his Eng was maybe just a little better than my Malay -- we naturally stuck to mostly b. Indo. It was my first time talking to such stereotypically "Chinese" older folks in a non-Han language.

OK, time to go scout for some wet T-shirts.

[amhoanna]

Oh, yeah. Sừsúi hit ê apeh kah asím ho͘ⁿ, goá kā in tàu khachiú liáu'āu, in tō tùi goá kecin hó, káná goá sī in hó pêng'iú ê hāuseⁿ. In ū saⁿ ê gínná, lóng chhaputto hâm goá pêⁿ hoè, tongjiân lóng íkeng kè tio̍h ang, choā tio̍h bó͘, li̍p tio̍h hó sūgia̍p. In kóng choā Ìnnî bó͘ bēbái, in kóng goá ēsái choē tio̍h ci̍t ê sìn Kitok ê, goá sûi ìn kóng goá píkāu khah siūⁿ'ài choē ci̍t ê sìn Hoêkàu ê (tòng bē tiâu lah!), hoâiⁿti̍t goá bô te̍kpia̍t ài cia̍h tưbah. Hoānsè in ū tāmpo̍h'á kiaⁿ tio̍h ah, liáu'āu tō bô koh kā goá kóng saⁿh!

[niuc]

Hi Amhoanna

Happy Songkraan! Thank you for sharing the stories! Did you join them in splashing water?

Is Thô'áhn̂g the Taiwanese Hoklo pronunciation of 桃園 (Tho5hn̂g5)? If this is the original pronunciation, what is the original 字 for áhn̂g? Is this the case like Cīnbér (盡尾?) becoming 集美; or Ē-m^n̂g 下門 becoming 廈門?

I didn't meet any Cantonese speaking Chinese in Bangkok. Some of the colleagues there could speak Teochew, also a few Chinese (e.g. eatery owner) around Chong Nonsi BTS. There was also an elderly lady who owned a snack shop with her husband (TC). She was from 廈門 and talked to me in Hokkien mixed with TC.

Great to see you use hógia̍^h. It's the most common word for rich in my variant, the opposite of pháigia̍^h. My Singaporean friends are not familiar with these two. And you are right that Bahasa Jawa used by Surabayan (especially Chinese?) are well known for being "rude" (ngoko/kasar).

Your "apeh kah asím", is asím there 阿嬸 (acím)? In my variant, gínná only means young children. Guá mā kámkah kîkuài kóng áncuáⁿ in kiò lír chuā ci̍^t ê sìn Kitok ê. Khuàⁿ in hànni "lia̍^tcîng", ingkai khahtuābīn sī "Lîng-unphài" e`!

[SimL]

Hi amhoanna,

As usual, I really enjoy reading about your travels, with all the cultural, historical, and linguistic observations which only someone with as much detailed knowledge as you could make.

OK, time to go scout for some wet T-shirts.

Because I didn't know anything about this festival until I read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songkran, I actually had a totally different image when I first read this statement (but perhaps both interpretations - simultaneously - are possible!). It was only because niuc asked "Did you join them in splashing water?" that I thought perhaps there was something other than my original image.

[niuc]

Ah! Only now I realize that áhn̂g is á-hn̂g 仔園! Though felt wierd about 'h' there, I mistaken it for áng, since the mark between n & g in hn̂g didn't show up on my PC screen.