Some more videoclips

[SimL]

Cit ê iáⁿphìⁿ ta̍ttit khoàⁿ:

"Tâi'oân ê cabó͘lâng"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5ss0JX9tA0

Hi amhoanna,

I don't know why I didn't respond to this earlier. I stumbled across it again, while looking at some older entries in the Forum. I think it's great! I particularly loved the bit - 02:25 - where the kid say "ma! li ai ciah hi-a-bue O. gua tua-han <unsure> e bue hi-a-bue hO li ciah, ho-bo?". (I only realised later *why* that particular part appealed to me - see below.)

In a slightly milder*** version of this, my own mother gave up the luxurious upper-middle-class lifestyle which she had in Malaysia - domestic staff doing all the cooking, laying the table, washing up the dishes, household cleaning, washing of clothes, ironing, folding of clothes, etc - and switched to doing all the housework for her husband and three boys, when we migrated to Australia. There were no daughters in my family, and we were still very sexist in the early 70's, so the only household chore I had to do was wash up the dishes once a week! All the other stuff, she took care of. She roasted two chickens every Sunday, to carve up for chicken sandwiches for us to have for lunch in school for the entire week (the school canteen food in my youth was real rubbish / junk food), and she got up early every morning to *make* those sandwiches for us. And - paralleling the little boy and the fish-tails of the clip - my mother always ate the "chicken back" (I think it's the back and rib cage coming around to the front, actually) all her life, leaving the drumsticks and baby drumsticks for her children, claiming to this day "no, no, I like trying to get the little bits of meat off the bone"!

At the time when you first posted the clip, I sent it on to several Taiwanese friends. The explicit topic is in praise of Taiwanese women, but I think it could apply to women in many cultures all over the world. Really beautiful, so thanks for posting!

***: "slightly milder" - that is to say, she still led the life of an upper-middle-class woman in Australia; she didn't physically *suffer* and wasn't deprived in terms of food or living conditions - and there were household appliances like washing machines, dish-washers, etc - but still, the sacrifices she was prepared to make in the ease of her life, for the sake of her children, were - in my humble opinion - pretty much something to be admired, and for me to be grateful for.

[amhoanna]

Hi, Sim. Much remains unspoken in the Hoklosphere in regards to this, namely the "place" of women in Hoklo society. I sense that people feel indebted to their Hoklo mothers for having made such sacrifices, but there's resentment bubbling under as well. You can see this in TW in the large numbers of women who've opted out of the old culture. They flock to North City and stay single till long after the biological alarm clock goes off. One 33-ish girl I know has a strategy of muddling her way through all questions about having kids "till she's too old to have them, then no one will bother her about it anymore". There's other factors too, c.f. the Gongleui (HK femme) phenomenon. Past TW Hoklo (and Hakka) mothers made great sacrifices, but Hoklo/Hakka society in fact demanded this of them. Had they chosen otherwise, an army of wagging tongues and mothers-in-law esp. and in some cases vicious husbands would've been on hand to hammer them into oblivion. I'll stop here -- I grew up in a different home culture where women do sacrifice, but in most cases not unequally, and in any case not in silence. I noticed that on Facebook among TW people it was mostly young cabó͘ reposting and commenting on this video, and the undertone was that Hoklo society was AND IS unreasonable in its expectations toward women. Last, I should add that mileage may vary for Hoklo societies overseas (outside of TW), since Japanese rule had a deep and in this case probably perverting influence on Hoklo (and Hakka) society in TW.

[SimL]

Hi amhoanna,

Thanks for your very insightful comments on this topic. I agree with what you say about the oppression of women in traditional Chinese society. In general, women have had a tough time for most of the last 4000 years of human history, though I suppose Chinese women had a tougher time than women in Western society, for many periods in the past. On the other hand, there are undoubtedly other traditional societies where women had it even worse than in Chinese society.

One of the earliest occasions when I realised the subservient role of women in Chinese society was at my grandmother's funeral. It was in the mid 70's, and I was in my mid-teens. At a certain point, for some ceremony (perhaps we had to file past the coffin or something), we - the mourners - had to form a number of lines. The first line was formed by the sons of my grandmother; the next line was the daughters of my grandmother; then a line for the sons-in-law, for the daughters-in-law, with at the end, a line for the male grandchildren, and then one for the female grandchildren. In each line, the mourners stood in order of age - the eldest first to the youngest last. Once these lines had formed, we proceeded to file past the coffin (or whatever we were supposed to do). I'm no longer sure of the exact order, but in any case, it was: first the line of sons, in order of age; then the line of daughters, in order of age; moving on to the other adults, and then the male grandchildren, and finally - at the very end - the female grandchildren; each line in order of age. This pattern repeated itself in a number of other rituals and ceremonies, both during and after the funeral - for example, the "khioh-kut" (= "picking of the bones", from out of the ashes, after the cremation), and (I think) also during the kong-tek (a special ceremony held a while after the funeral).

Seeing this pattern repeated so many times really brought home to me the hierarchical structure of traditional Chinese society: age before youth, and males before females.

So, I applaud and support the efforts of these women you know who are trying to break free of these shackles. Hopefully the whole world can move on to creating societies where all people are just treated as individual human beings, and given the same rights and privileges, irrespective of gender.

PS. I actually wrote this whole piece above once, but lost it because of a time-out when finally hitting "Submit". How many other posters have had this extremely irritating thing happen before! Often, I remember to save all the text separately first, before hitting "Preview" or "Submit", but lately, the time-out period has been quite long, so even when I forgot, this wasn't a problem. But it was today . As always when this happens to me, I feel that my original version expressed what I wanted to say much better. But there's no help for it, this is the only version I've got!

[amhoanna]

"Gentlemen first" is the rule in most of the world, definitely. Maybe "gentlemen first" societies are better at warfare, esp. on flat land. And so they spread...

Even w/i the Sinosphere, my mother and other family members often referred to "Taiwan ren" society (Hoklo and maybe Hakka as well) as being esp. male-chauvinistic. Again, this may've had something to do with "the Japan Era".

I notice that the concept of gender division of labor has kind of gone away in the Mandarin world, but is still staying alive in the Hoklosphere, Hakkasphere, among Teochews, etc. Unfortunately gender division of labor is usually tied to gender inequality. This might go to explain why chicks seem more eager than dudes to forget Hoklo and "remember their national language".

BTW I use the Ctrl-A, Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V routine as a safeguard against timeouts.

[niuc]

Hi Sim & Amhoanna

Even w/i the Sinosphere, my mother and other family members often referred to "Taiwan ren" society (Hoklo and maybe Hakka as well) as being esp. male-chauvinistic. Again, this may've had something to do with "the Japan Era".

Amhoanna, if you don't mind, may I know which part of China is your family from (before moving to Taiwan)? I used to think that all Chinese traditionally were equally "male-chauvinistic" (重男輕女 tiong7-lam5 khin1-ly2) but it seems not true. I heard that in Shanghai area, women are fierce and men have to cook and wash clothes for their wives (dunno how true), something considered odd among Hokkiens. Nowadays with washing machine etc and also emancipation, many younger Chinese (inc. Hokkiens) may help a bit to wash dishes etc, especially if their wives also work. That was unthinkable in my parents' generation in Bagansiapiapi, even when some of the wives had to help in earning money also. IMHO, Japanese rule may have impact on Taiwanese, as I heard even Bagan people said that Taiwan-lang were more "male-chauvinistic" and that mothers in law in Taiwan were fiercer. A few Bagan women are married to Taiwan-lang in Taiwan.

I agree that women should have same opportunity to study and work etc, and to be treated as equal human beings. However, not that you both necessarily disagree , I believe in both equality and order/hierarchy and the need to hold them in harmony. Man and woman are equal, and by order it is man first and then woman. Old and young are also equal, and by order it is old first and then young. Surely I don't believe in rigid application of these (there are always good exceptions), but they are natural and useful for the society not to fall into chaos. It is only when men act like men and not like women, and so on, that a society can truly function. Actually it is not so much about rules than about our psychological needs: a dominant wife is never happy to have a henpecked husband, a child to childish (not childlike) parents, etc. It is said that a husband must love (including to sacrifice his own life for) his wife and a wife must respect (including to submit to) her husband, in acknowlegement of equal yet different psychological perceptions.

[SimL]

... Man and woman are equal, and by order it is man first and then woman. Old and young are also equal, and by order it is old first and then young...

For the first proposition, I feel that this is a result of evolutionary/biological processes, where men are more violent/aggressive then women (this seems to match amhoanna's opinion), and that results in "man first and then woman" in many societies which we see around us. I don't feel that this situation is necessarily desirable (furthermore, I think that historically - for limited periods of time, in a limited number of societies - women had precedence). But that's just my personal opinion - everyone has their own "world view". For the second proposition, I agree to some extent (probably will agree more the older I get, as it works in my favour ), but like you, "I don't believe in rigid application of these".

On this latter point, I saw a very interesting documentary on TV many years ago, when I first came to the Netherlands. A Dutch museum director (or a curator) was working on an exhibition of (East?) Asian works, from a major museum there (I'm not trying to protect their identities, I just no longer remember even which country it was - I seem to vaguely recall Thailand, or Mongolia, or Japan). A large number of priceless objects were being brought over on loan, as so often happens in these situations. The documentary was sort of "pre-publicity" for the exhibition, and so covered the preparations for the exhibition. The reporter interviewed the director about how the arrangements were going. The director explained that it was going quite well, but that he sometimes had difficulty accepting some of the cultural norms of the people he was working with in the East. He went on to give an example of this. He had already been across to meet the museum staff in Asia, and to start planning the exhibition. When he got back to the Netherlands, he found out that the pieces were going to be packed in a particular way, which he didn't think was very good. So, he contacted one of the team of the Asian museum and expressed his reservations. The team member he contacted said "Yes, I agree with you, this isn't a very good way to do it, and most of us don't think so too, but <X> has decided that it should be done that way." The director then challenged this, saying: "But <X> is just one of your colleagues, he's not the head of the team or anything. If so many of you think it should be done differently, why don't you tell him and change the method?" The Asian colleague then said: "No, we can't even mention it, because he's older than all the rest of us". The director wanted to express that this Asian aspect of "respect for age" was something which he was having difficulty with.

And I suppose that what I mean (and possibly you too) about how it is good to have a certain respect for age, but that it shouldn't be frozen into a rigid approach: "older" automatically = "better, more rights, more authority".

And I do agree with: "... they are natural and useful for the society not to fall into chaos...". I thought this to myself when originally "grumbling" about my "men before women, older before younger" posting. A structured society does have a lot of positive aspects.

[amhoanna]

I've believed for some time, and strongly, that "men should be men and women should be women". And I don't mean this in an empty sense. On any dancefloor in tropical America, men lead and women follow. Men build houses and women have babies. And nobody tries to convince U that fathers are just as good as mothers when it comes to looking after the young ones. The keyword for me is nature, not structure.

I lay this out there as a personal opinion, b/c it seems that in most societies where "men are men and women are women", women are at the same time disadvantaged, sometimes even by law. And most of our wealthier gender-equal societies are full of manly women and "neutral" men. Yet maybe that's just as well ... or a nasty but necessary stage.

Back to nature vs. structure. Yin-yang is nature. In "natural" societies like most of the tropics, it's clear that as a man you have to be "the man" with your significant other. She expects it. A man will get nowhere by letting his squeeze dominate him. Whereas in the First World, it seems like a man will get nowhere no matter what , b/c the women are still women, but fight their nature. But the all-or-nothing patrilineal bent of Chinese society seems arbitrary to me, or even unnatural. Our daughters' kids are our grandkids no less than our sons'. But who knows how many girl babies have met their end over this kind of thing. Or how many women raked over the coals for not having boy babies.

I think it's a great idea to honor the elderly. This is probably one place where structure is needed to support nature. I remember one night in a tropical American capital when a long line of mostly young people were pushing and shoving to get on the last bus to the coast, and no one would let an 80-year-old lady get on first.

I must admit gun2 ma-mah si7 Siong7-hai2 lang5, Nusa Indah-born-and-raised. My father's side is from central Ciatkang (a very different place from Sionghai in every way) and the middle Yangtze. I think the Shanghai stereotypes are true in many cases. Most of Han China changed in the first few decades of the PRC era, though. I get the impression that in the cities, the general idea is that "men and women are the same". It seems that most of Kwongtung has managed to escape this kind of thing, along with Mandarinization, etc. Or maybe that's just the countryside?

[niuc]

The Asian colleague then said: "No, we can't even mention it, because he's older than all the rest of us".

Sim, thank you for sharing. In this case I'd have agreed more with the Dutch than the Asian. The sample above is too extreme, even for Chinese, I'd say.

The keyword for me is nature, not structure.

Thank you, Amhoanna, for sharing. I agree with you about the nature part. IMHO, structure should be an icon (image/reflection) of nature.

But who knows how many girl babies have met their end over this kind of thing. Or how many women raked over the coals for not having boy babies.

Those discriminations against girls/women are definitely wrong. Although those are hardly found among overseas Chinese now, it is a tragedy that many girl babies have been aborted or "thrown away" in PRC.

[SimL]

Hi,

This is perhaps the first time I ever managed to find an old topic which was appropriate for a new posting!

In my usual "once every 2-3 month search" for Hokkien-related clips on youtube, I came across this.

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IHEsIEw ... playnext=7

It appears to be a Malaysian TV station, promoting Hokkien language and identity. They seem to try and include all forms of Hokkien, not just North and South Peninsular, but talk about different regions of China as well.

If you let this clip play on to the end and just wait a while, then (perhaps only with some option turned on, but it does it for me), the next clip starts after a while. It cycles around after about 7 clips, of which the one I've posted here is the best. The whole set seems to be a series of publicity clips for the station, and look really promising.

However, the (very short) extracts of the actual programs on the station are disappointing (put "Hua Hee Dai" into the youtube search window). They seem to be mostly game-shows, with a lot of noise and hoohah. I found that I couldn't watch even a single one for more than 30-40 seconds without getting extremely irritated with the superficiality of the content and the frenetic pace of the presentation. If anyone has the patience to look through more samples of related links, and would like to post some "serious" ones they find - at least ones where they don't talk at 500 words per minute (in the real world, the average talking speed is apparently about 120 words per minute) - then I would be extremely grateful.

In any case, I suppose, I'm glad it exists, even if it's not quite my cup of tea.

[SimL]

Singapore politician broadcasting in Hokkien! Very clear, slow speech, using some "sophisticated" vocabularly, but still easily understandable to me - remarkable, given my limited Hokkien!

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVcXYYcW ... re=related

PS. He says "lokun", "mana", "ta(N)han", "balu", as well as borrowings from English ("hawker centre", "tissue paper", "percent", "GST"), and Mandarin (too many to name - or rather, too fast for me to catch, though on 3rd or 4th listening, I got "zao3can1", and "wan3can1").

PPS. Without wanting *this* forum to get heavily/overtly political... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chee_Soon_Juan gives some quite interesting information.