What are the names of these two gods?

[SimL]

Reading niuc's posted Wikipedia link - and a related link - brought one interesting point to my attention.

In the Tua Peh Kong link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tua_Pek_Kong it says "Tua Pek Kong is often mistaken for Tu Di Gong, partially because of their physical similarities". In the Tu Di Gong link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_Di_Gong it says "A formal name for Tu Di Gong is simplified Chinese: 福德正神; pinyin: Fúdé zhèngshén, meaning the earth god of wealth and merit."

So, it would appear that the "福德正神" name that both niuc and I are familiar with in association with Tua Pek Kong is actually a result of this mis-identification.

Well, I thought it was interesting, at any rate.

I find it strange when something I "know" from my past, about (say) Penang, gets recorded on Wikipedia. The Tua Pek Kong link says "Chung Keng Quee was a principal donor to the Haichu-yu (Sea Pearl) Tua Pek Kong Temple (1865 and 1868) in Tanjung Tokong, Penang". So, apparently, this Tanjong Tokong temple that I know of as being a major Tua Pek Kong temple really is a major Tua Pek Kong temple. I suppose this shouldn't surprise me, but somehow it does.

PS. Two other interesting points can be seen in the Tu Di Gong link:
1. He too carries a golden ingot.
2. He has a wife who is not as benevolent/generous, which is a parallel to niuc's story (though quite different in detail).

[SimL]

... Another personage sometimes "worshipped" in Penang - but this time more historically known - is "Sam Po Kong". There used to be a shrine on one of the more distant beaches of Penang, next to a rock which was suppose to have his footprint (it was a depression in the rock, about the size of a footprint***).

Hah! What can't one find on the internet nowadays!

After I had written the above, my subconscious must have been quietly percolating away on this topic, because, a few hours later, the place name "Batu Maung" suddenly flashed through my head. I seemed to remember that that was where the shrine of the "Sam Po Kong" footprint was. This was definitely something I didn't remember, when I wrote my original posting.

Anyway, a quick check on Wikipedia revealed (on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Maung) that "[there is - among other things - a] Tapak Gedembai (a giant footprint cast in stone) near the fishing port ..." in Batu Maung! So, that was probably the thing and place I was thinking about.

Further use of Google produced these links (among many others):

http://www.neosentuhan.com.my/tourism20 ... /at04b.htm

This is quite a long article, giving the stories associated with the footprint by the different ethnic groups in Malaysia. The part about the Chinese version goes: "Today, the print is carefully enshrined in a small temple built by the local Chinese community. A common Chinese belief has it that the footprint was made by Cheng Ho (also called Sam Poh), the famous Chinese admiral who visited Malacca in the fifteenth century. The site is now officially called 'Sam Poh Footprint'. "

http://borneotip.blogspot.com/2010/09/s ... emple.html

This one has some good photos.

Apparently, my memory was not very accurate, as both articles and the photos show that it was a large footprint, whereas my memory of it was of it being about the same size as a human foot, and with a shape which was not at all convincing.

[niuc]

Thank you, Sim, for sharing your interesting findings!

As a child I heard stories about "Sam Po Kong" too, but in Bagansiapiapi nobody worshipped him. However, there is a big temple dedicated to him in Semarang. I just found out that Chinese wiki stated that he converted to Buddhism. However, usually it is said that he was a Muslim. A lot of Chinese people have been quite "practical", especially in SE Asia; beside building temples for him, also praying to "Datuk" (not sure who, said to be Malay, rituals including offering of "sirih" done on Friday). Strangely, the latter but not the former existed - though quite seldom - in Bagansiapiapi. So far, I hardly know any Chinese who are purely Buddhist in the strict sense (meaning excluding Chinese folk deities etc).

Up to that moment, I had cheerfully accepted the story as being true - part of my inner wish to have "magical things" exist in the universe, I guess.

While many "magical things" are hoax (I am not sure about the Snake Temple), I do believe that there are - although rare - true magical/mystical/miraculous things/events. IMHO they are not opposed to science, as the latter is still advancing, and probably will able to understand more about "true miracles" in the future.

Since you mentioned about 孟姜女 in Chinese Wikipedia, I took a look and just found that her surname was 姜 and not 孟!

So, it would appear that the "福德正神" name that both niuc and I are familiar with in association with Tua Pek Kong is actually a result of this mis-identification.

Hmmm... not very surprising. However, in Bagansiapiapi 土地公 is understood to be different from - and his "small altar" (usually only writing and no image/statue) is usually put under the altar of - 大伯公. So it seems to be a "handover" of the title 福德正神!

[SimL]

As a child I heard stories about "Sam Po Kong" too, ... However, usually it is said that he was a Muslim.

Ah! Perhaps most Chinese in Malaysia know this too then. Perhaps it was only because I was so young at the time that I didn't pick up this information. I'll ask my parents if they know.

A lot of Chinese people have been quite "practical", especially in SE Asia; ... also praying to "Datuk" (not sure who, said to be Malay, rituals including offering of "sirih" done on Friday).

In Malaysia, I know of "da1-toh8-kong1" (= "datuk-公"), but I have never realised that he might actually be a *single* deity. I just thought of the many roadside datuk-公 shrines as being shrines to honour a random ("Malay") spirit being who happened to be around that area - i.e. that there were many, different individual datuk-公's, each with his own shrine - somewhat like any specific haunted house having its individual ghost. I have to say that your perception of it makes a lot more sense. As a single "deity", there would be specific days for honouring him, specific things which are traditionally sacrificed to him because he 'likes' them, etc. Thanks for this.

I do believe that there are - although rare - true magical/mystical/miraculous things/events. IMHO they are not opposed to science, as the latter is still advancing, and probably will able to understand more about "true miracles" in the future.

I think that's a very good attitude. There is a subgroup of "scientists" who subscribe to everything presently "known to science", but reject anything outside that scope. I.e. they are not even willing to think about / consider the possibility of certain phenomena which can't be explained by current scientific knowledge. I feel that they are almost "fundamentalist" in their attitude. They reject outright things like acupuncture, alternative medicine, ESP, etc, whereas there isn't really any reason why there might not ultimately be a "scientific" explanation of these phenomena. Related to this are the "animal scientists" who foam at the mouth even to hear that other "animal scientists" are doing research into whether animals could actually have self-awareness and "feelings". I really cannot relate to such dogmatism, which is - in the final analysis - not at all in the "scientific spirit".

However, in Bagansiapiapi 土地公 is understood to be different from - and his "small altar" (usually only writing and no image/statue) is usually put under the altar of - 大伯公. So it seems to be a "handover" of the title 福德正神!

Yes, I'm pretty sure this is the case in Malaysia too. I've never seen an "Earth God" with an image before, and that Wikipedia article was the first time I'd encountered the idea of his having an image. I'll have to check some of my books about Chinese deities. I may be wrong, but in my perception, the Earth God - in Malaysia at any rate - is also less directly connected to wealth, and more connected with just "general well-being of the vicinity". So I liked your comment on the "handover" of the title .

[SimL]

I'm afraid I'm a victim of the modern age as well, in that I quickly skim articles without reading many of the details.

If I *had* read more carefully, I would have noticed that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_Di_Gong in fact explains (albeit implicitly) that there is a "Malaysian/Indonesian version" of Tu Di Gong who indeed doesn't have an image, but rather a tablet: "Dizhu (Chinese: 地主神, meaning Earth Spirit) is a spirit in Chinese folk beliefs, which is analogous to Tu Di Gong. Di Zhu God's tablet is inscribed with (middle two rows) "left: The Earth God of Overseas Tang peoples (Overseas Chinese), right: The dragon of five sides & five lands (Fengshui)." But according to this article, 地主神 does has jurisdiction over wealth.

[amhoanna]

Kúkú bô thang khílâi bānglō͘ ah!

Hōló lâng ê sînbêng ho͘ⁿ, khêngsi̍t goá bô saⁿh liáukái. Worst of all, I don't know them on sight, except Mácó͘.

Thó͘tīkong (Lord of the Earth) is a major deity in TW. He's a go-to god in affairs of wealth and business. Thâuke and their employees will worship him on-site at the start of any business endeavor.

Toāpehkong temples seem to be everywhere in M'sia, but I've never heard of him in a TW context.

Despite my ignorance, the pantheon shows no signs of fading in TW society at large.

[niuc]

In Malaysia, I know of "da1-toh8-kong1" (= "datuk-公"), but I have never realised that he might actually be a *single* deity.

Sim, actually I am not sure if he is a *single* deity or there are different "datuks". In Bagansiapiapi it's usually pronounced as "na5/7-to8-kong1" or usually just "na5/7-to8" (na5/7 -> na3 in running tone/sandhi).

I really cannot relate to such dogmatism, which is - in the final analysis - not at all in the "scientific spirit".

Wholly agree! Scientism (and others, such as Atheism) is often as dogmatic as - or even more than - religions. And as you say, it is not at all in the scientific spirit. Similarly, religious people who are too easily beguiled to believe in hoax are not in the right religious spirit also [e.g. The Bible says "Test all things; hold fast what is good"; and Buddhist concept of "Ehipassiko"].

I'm afraid I'm a victim of the modern age as well, in that I quickly skim articles without reading many of the details.

Upssst! Me too! Thanks, the description in Wikipedia does match what I saw!

Toāpehkong temples seem to be everywhere in M'sia, but I've never heard of him in a TW context.

Thanks, Amhoanna, so Toāpehkong seems to be a SE Asian Chinese deity. O yeah, it is said that he goes to heaven (cue3-khe4 作客) before Chinese New Year and returns on the 4th day of the New Year. Is this applied to other deity in Taiwan or Mainland China?

[SimL]

Hi niuc,

Sim, actually I am not sure if he is a *single* deity or there are different "datuks".

Ah, ok. Still, once you raised the idea, it makes more sense than my original conception. Let's see if we can ask someone who knows.

In Bagansiapiapi it's usually pronounced as "na5/7-to8-kong1" or usually just "na5/7-to8" (na5/7 -> na3 in running tone/sandhi).

Actually, the tone contours of your version of "na5/7-to8-kong1" would be very similar to mine, because my "da1-toh8-kong1" would, in sandhi-tones be "da7-toh4-kong1" and your "na5/7-to8-kong1" would, in sandhi-tones be "na7/3-to4-kong1", and for me, tone-3 & tone-7 are identical *. So, aside from the "n-" vs "d-", the pronunciation in our two variants is practically identical. Particularly when one considers that "d-", "l-", "j-" and "n-" are very mixed over the various varieties of Hokkien anyway. In general, Penang Hokkien is NOT one of the "d-/l-" varieties, and is very much a "j-" variety - for example, we have "jip8" (="enter"), "juah8" (="hot"), "jin7" (="recognize"). But, for some words borrowed from Malay, the "d-" is present and pronounced completely like a Malay "d-" **.

it is said that he goes to heaven (cue3-khe4 作客) before Chinese New Year and returns on the 4th day of the New Year. Is this applied to other deity in Taiwan or Mainland China?

Wasn't it the Kitchen God who traditionally went off to Heaven before CNY and came back a few days after too?

I know this happened around that time, but I don't know for sure exactly what days, because I was brought up in a more or less "agnostic" household. My mother was brought up Christian and my father with Buddhism / Chinese folk religion, but neither of them really did anything on the religious side of things as adults. My Mum had no objections to my Dad taking me to any Chinese religious ceremonies (except the spirit mediums during Kiu Ong Ia, but that was more because of the bloodiness of the acts than because it was non-Christian) - for example, my Dad took me to Tua Peh Kong's birthday once, but still he only did this more from a "sociological/cultural" point of view - to enrich my life with traditional Chinese culture - than because he believed in any of these things. So, my main exposure to Chinese folk religion was either at my grandmother's house (my Dad's mother), or when he took me to see public religious ceremonies. That's why I have an idea that my grandmother sent the Kitchen God off before the CNY and received him back after, but I don't know the exact dates, as it wasn't in my own home.

PS. Whenever I was at my grandmother's house early enough in the morning, I would pester her to allow me to join her in the "pai ThiN-Kong". This is something which (I think) every household in Penang which practiced Chinese folk religion did. Such households would inevitably have a ThiN-Kong altar at the front of the house, near the front door. [For people living in shophouses or in "terraced houses" in the city (almost identical in layout to shophouses, except that they were fully residential on the ground floor), one of the pillars (the right one, as you face the house/front-door, IIRC) would always have a ThiN-Kong altar, at about head height - one can probably still see this in Penang to this day. My grandmother lived in a more western-style house - stand-alone, with a garden - so the altar was attached to one of the pillars which constituted the "porch-cum-garage", near the front door. Every morning, she would burn 3 sticks of incense at this altar, and if I was around, I always wanted to join her (with my own 3 sticks of incense), because I was always keen on Chinese folk religion. She always "mumbled" something quietly to herself when she was doing it. Unfortunately, as a 10-12 year old boy, it never occurred to me to *ask* her what she was saying (or thinking), when she was doing this. I mean: was she thanking ThiN-Kong for good things which had happened, or was she asking for bad things to pass, or neither - i.e. was she just chanting a very standard prayer, or asking for "protection" in general? If any readers of the Forum know (in general), I would be very interested to know.

*: In fact, I could have written my variant as "da1-toh8-kong1", "da5-toh8-kong1", or "da7-toh8-kong1", because in all 3 cases (for me), the sandhi tone would sound like "da3" or "da7", and given that the "da" of "datuk-kong" never has a citation tone anyway, it's quite arbitrary which of the three one picks.

**: Though "lo3-kun1" (= "doctor") - from Malay "dukun" (= "traditional healer") - has an "l-", not a "d-".

[amhoanna]

Regarding coe3-kheh: not a clue. I did a bit of a search with the kanji but didn't find anything. In hindsight, coe3 should probably be the other character.

(My laptop is down and so far I've yet to find a webcafe on Bali that offers kanji input.)

[niuc]

Actually, the tone contours of your version of "na5/7-to8-kong1" would be very similar to mine

Thanks for pointing this out, Sim. May be the "Datuk" worship was spread across the region with the pronunciation too.

Wasn't it the Kitchen God who traditionally went off to Heaven before CNY and came back a few days after too?

That (about Kitchen God 灶君公) was what I usually read or heard outside Bagansiapiapi. In Bagan tradition, it is said that 大伯公 (the main character) and other "major" gods (including 灶君公) all go back to Heaven for CNY, leaving only their attendants to look after the house altars. The event itself is focused on 大伯公, and called 大伯公去做客 and never 灶君公(or others)去做客. From what I saw, altar for 灶君 (no statue, only writing) was in kitchen area and quite small and not many houses in Bagan had it; and it's said that he went to report to Heaven every three days.

During 大伯公去做客 (23rd/12 lunar if not mistaken) and 大伯公做客倒來 (4th/1), his worshippers cook tau1-mi7 (a dish that looks like transparent glue with taro and vegetables) and 冬粉 tang1-hun2. It's said that 大伯公 brings back lui1 (money), so the former is to "liam5-lui1" glue money and the latter to "kng3-lui1" bind coins. It's so typical Chinese, so "frank" about love for money! Although my family don't partake or believe in those, we all love to eat tau1-mi7.

Such households would inevitably have a ThiN-Kong altar at the front of the house, near the front door.

Is it the one with writing like 天官賜福? I saw this in Jakarta, most probably from Medan. In Bagan the "altar" for 天公 is only a metal semi-cone shaped container, painted red & nailed on the wall near the front door, to 插香 'cha4-hiu*1' (put in joss sticks).

Regarding coe3-kheh: not a clue. I did a bit of a search with the kanji but didn't find anything. In hindsight, coe3 should probably be the other character.

Ah, yes, thanks Amhoanna! So it should be 做客. Actually I often get confused about 做 & 作.