Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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niuc
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

Many (probably most) Taiwanese also identify themselves as 中國人 (Zhongguoren/Tiongkoklang)
Last time Bagan-lang referred to themselves as 中國人 also, but now the term is usually understood as PRC national.
Green-leaning types tend not to use it in Mandarin, but it seems like they use it in Hoklo anyway b/c there's no alternative.
Surprise!
After going Han, Formosan people often said things like, "No, no, no. We are pure Han, from Hokkien."
That's quite common among Southern Chinese, I guess. Though Baiyue genes etc in our blood vary from a bit to a lot, nevertheless most think of themselves as pure Han. Having say that, shouldn't the term 唐人 include 百越 already? May be this is why we refer to ourselves as 唐人 instead of 漢人? I wonder how prevalent were mix marriages in Northern Chinese, and how their descendants view themselves now?

Shameful for the citizens b/c we haven't been able to overthrow our ROC elite and bring them to trial.
Are you referring to 228 Massacre?
Second thing, back to the death of the Taiwanese Independence movement. I can't help wondering if the movement failed b/c it failed to capture the imagination of the female demographic, and if this was b/c the "Hoklo / mythic Taiwanese" culture it was associated with was so male-chauvinistic, or perceived as being just that.
Beside that, I think their anti-Chinese stance is often ridiculous. One thing I cannot understand though: why should they try so hard to deny everything Chinese in order to be independent? Is there such a "rule" that there must be only one country for Chinese? IMHO, PRC and ROC are just fine, no matter whether their citizens choose to unite or always stay as two different countries.
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

Hi Sim,

Hakkas in TW are very mainstream in how they refer to Tnglang: Huaren, Zhongguoren, Tiongkoklang, etc. I think most of them have no qualms about using any of these terms. As Yams, they're much less afraid of being politically incorrect than Taros are, but unlike the Hoklo, they're historically very "pro-Tiongkok", e.g. fighting alongside Qing troops to put down Hoklo anti-Qing uprisings. It would be interesting to know what words they use in Hakka. But Hakka is fading fast in TW. Outside a handful of backroads all-Hakka townships, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone under 45 who could speak fluent Hakka.

You relate more to Green-leaning people? Interesting!

Hi Niuc,
That's quite common among Southern Chinese, I guess. Though Baiyue genes etc in our blood vary from a bit to a lot, nevertheless most think of themselves as pure Han. Having say that, shouldn't the term 唐人 include 百越 already? May be this is why we refer to ourselves as 唐人 instead of 漢人? I wonder how prevalent were mix marriages in Northern Chinese, and how their descendants view themselves now?
I guess there's no reason why it couldn't be included... As I see it, 漢人 vs. 唐人 is a matter of "Southern pride". It's probably no coincidence that the second term is mostly used in Kwongtung and places with lots of Kwongtung-jan.

A lot of the people I meet from north of the Great Wall are part Han, part Mongol or Manchu or Korean blood. Seems like they mostly consider themselves to be "Chinese", but I think something happens when Korean blood approaches one half. They become very conscious of being half Korean or ethnic Korean. Ethnic Koreans from China, when they go to L.A., they join the Korean community, no questions asked. I knew a Han-Mongol girl who grew up in Nagoya. I think she considered herself to be Japanese, but in true Japanese fashion, she refused to talk about these things.
Are you referring to 228 Massacre?
That's the focal point. Also the Pehsek Khiongpou. But the misbehavior continued throughout the time of martial law. Also consider KMT businesses like China Airlines. They regulated the gov't, not the other way around. KMT people controlled every industry in this way. Banking. Loans. It was endlessly "corrupt". No wonder they get nostalgic talking about the martial law days. It's also interesting how much money Chiang Kaishek dumped into building monuments to himself, at a time when TW was a Third World economy. Isn't that the worst kind of "corruption"? But hey, my view doesn't "represent". Most TWese LOVE their dictators.
Beside that, I think their anti-Chinese stance is often ridiculous. One thing I cannot understand though: why should they try so hard to deny everything Chinese in order to be independent?
A vast topic. I agree that THEIR anti-Chinese stance is usually ridiculous. They never defined or tried to understand what "Chinese" is, and what they are in relation to it. They assumed this was irrelevant. They were men and women of the "modern" era. Spiritually, they flowed from the Meiji Restoration. They saw everything in national terms: pissing into the wind, in these times. I guess we can see the same thing elsewhere, in Indonesia, in Thailand, in China, everywhere: distorting history for the sake of the nation. Even "we-had-to-import-our-water" Singapore--never mind the super-strategic location. :mrgreen:

Then there's the antagonism btw the ROC and the TW nationalists. "Internationally," the whole dispute is usually framed in PRC vs. ROC terms. People don't realize how vicious the ROC was toward the TW nationalists. That's where the real fight was. The whole ROC/PRC thing was just a charade. Talk to politically-minded Blue-leaning people in TW. They would reconcile with the PRC--the people that flushed them out of China--but they'd never reconcile with the TW nationalists, the people whose nation they prevented. Food for thought. But the ROC isn't the same ROC anymore. There's Green power in the ROC now. That's why Green power sold the nationalist/independence project down the river. And the whole fight is reshaping itself into what the "international community" assumed it was all along.

The TW nationalists were/are Chinese, deep down. They worshipped their ancestors and the Son of Heaven. Their break with other Chinese was that they shifted their allegiance to the Atlantic world. The president of the U.S. became their Son of Heaven. This is why other Chinese are so outraged, esp. Nusantara/M'sian Chinese (for many reasons).

As for why they wanted to do this, it probably had a lot to do with the things they suffered under ROC rule, plus the brainwashing that the Japanese delivered. In their hearts, they wanted to see the Atlantic powers and Japan put a beatdown on the ROC, or the PRC if necessary. This is a lot like educated PRC people always anxious to see their military lay a beatdown on TW, or KMT people hoping that the PRC will lay a beatdown on TW if the TW nationalists get the upper hand.

The VNese rejected China for different reasons: "Let no man hold us under." Maybe someday TW or Kwongtung, etc., will be able to do the same. What it boils down to is a basic attitude in life. In Vietnamese culture, heroes are little people who outsmart and beat back the big people who want to dominate them. In Chinese culture, heroes are big people who beat down little people when the little people want to be free. It's sick.
Is there such a "rule" that there must be only one country for Chinese? IMHO, PRC and ROC are just fine, no matter whether their citizens choose to unite or always stay as two different countries.
I agree. Singapore kind of is another Chinese country. Yet the ROC probably has no reason to exist. But there's powerful vested interests that control the media in TW and tell us how important it is for the ROC to go on. I mean, it's okay for it to exist. Let's just not pretend that that means anything.
niuc
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

Hi Amhoanna

Many thanks for all the interesting info.
As I see it, 漢人 vs. 唐人 is a matter of "Southern pride". It's probably no coincidence that the second term is mostly used in Kwongtung and places with lots of Kwongtung-jan.
I see. Do Hokkiens in Cuanciu / Ciangciu / other 閩南地區 refer to themselves as 唐人 or 漢人 or any other term(s)?
 
That's the focal point. Also the Pehsek Khiongpou. But the misbehavior continued throughout the time of martial law. Also consider KMT businesses like China Airlines. They regulated the gov't, not the other way around. KMT people controlled every industry in this way. Banking. Loans. It was endlessly "corrupt".
Thanks, although I have known about 228 and some stories, I never knew this before. A corrupt regime indeed. How about now?
But hey, my view doesn't "represent". Most TWese LOVE their dictators.
Most people seem to care "only" about their livelihood. Many Indonesians hated Suharto for his dictatorial and corrupt regime, yet afterwards some were nostalgic about it. Similarly, when I was in primary school, a Javanese school worker told us that Dutch colonial regime was much better than then Suharto's.
Even "we-had-to-import-our-water" Singapore--never mind the super-strategic location. :mrgreen:
Although I am now a Singapore citizen, I have to admit that I don't know much about Singapore history. I am not sure about the schools here, but new citizens were not required to know much about national history. Not surprising, as most born & bred Singaporean don't even know the national anthem by heart. :P
The TW nationalists were/are Chinese, deep down. They worshipped their ancestors and the Son of Heaven. Their break with other Chinese was that they shifted their allegiance to the Atlantic world. The president of the U.S. became their Son of Heaven. This is why other Chinese are so outraged, esp. Nusantara/M'sian Chinese (for many reasons).
Great analysis! Not sure about M'sian or Nusantara Chinese part. Surely there are many who want to see a strong China, yet I wonder how many are really pro-CCP. Many Singaporean & Indonesian Chinese are quite pro-US, I'd say, though with a pinch of salt.
As for why they wanted to do this, it probably had a lot to do with the things they suffered under ROC rule, plus the brainwashing that the Japanese delivered. In their hearts, they wanted to see the Atlantic powers and Japan put a beatdown on the ROC, or the PRC if necessary. This is a lot like educated PRC people always anxious to see their military lay a beatdown on TW, or KMT people hoping that the PRC will lay a beatdown on TW if the TW nationalists get the upper hand.
Well said!
The VNese rejected China for different reasons: "Let no man hold us under." Maybe someday TW or Kwongtung, etc., will be able to do the same. What it boils down to is a basic attitude in life. In Vietnamese culture, heroes are little people who outsmart and beat back the big people who want to dominate them. In Chinese culture, heroes are big people who beat down little people when the little people want to be free. It's sick.
I don't know much about VNese, but you seem to admire them a lot. :mrgreen: For me, heroes in Chinese history are someone like 岳飛,文天祥 or 鄭成功. Who are those heroes that are big people who beat down little people when the little people want to be free?
Yet the ROC probably has no reason to exist.
May be should change name to Republic of Taiwan? :mrgreen: But I think it's still too risky.
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

A corrupt regime indeed. How about now?
From a day-to-day perspective, I think Taiwan is all right. I think U can still "feel the corruption" in TW at a higher level, though. Oligarchies, mafia, back room deals, etc. And the media. The reason why the Blue ROC people own so much media is b/c they plundered as much resources as they could back when they ruled by the sword. But I don't think any Asian society has managed to outgrow all of these things yet.
Not surprising, as most born & bred Singaporean don't even know the national anthem by heart. :P
Well, it's in a foreign language, right? :P
Not sure about M'sian or Nusantara Chinese part. Surely there are many who want to see a strong China, yet I wonder how many are really pro-CCP. Many Singaporean & Indonesian Chinese are quite pro-US, I'd say, though with a pinch of salt.
I didn't mean pro-CCP. Actually, across Nusantara, sinkheh seem to prefer the ROC. But being Chinese was/is such a key part of their identities... And in some cases being governed by hoanna has made their lives difficult, or at least it seems that way to them. (I'm not saying that it hasn't. But it seems that they've generally viewed the Austronesian governments in a harsher light than they did the European colonial ones.) Meanwhile, the TWese thrived under ROC rule w/o having to "overcome" the unreasonable challenges of hoanna government. So in this sense I think I "understand" why Nusantara Chinese had so little sympathy for the anti-ROC movement in TW.
Who are those heroes that are big people who beat down little people when the little people want to be free?
How about 開漳聖王 陳元光?

In Chinese stories, including new ones being made commercially, rebellion is usually automatically "bad" and "evil", unless it's being carried out on behalf of all Chinese against a non-Chinese overlord e.g. the Qing. In a way the Communist revolution was un-Chinese, and they knew it. :mrgreen:
May be should change name to Republic of Taiwan? :mrgreen: But I think it's still too risky.
Sure, if the people ever grow the balls for it. Or maybe they should just go for the same kind of status as Hong Kong. But there are elites who would lose their rents if that happened. That's why they "educate" the people against it.
niuc
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

Well, it's in a foreign language, right?
:lol: To be politically correct, it's in the national language! ;-)
How about 開漳聖王 陳元光?
Pardon my ignorance. I didn't know about him. Reading from Wikipedia now, I guess you are referring to his "pacifying" Fujian (conquering earlier native people?). As it's often said: One man's hero is another man's villain. I don't know much about Vietnamese history / heroes, yet if not mistaken they also conquered Champa. So it's not very different, I'd have thought (in my ignorance). While I have no enough information to "judge" about 陳元光, for sure I agree with you that big people bullying little people is always a bad thing, regardless whether it happens in Chinese, Vietnamese or any other context.
In Chinese stories, including new ones being made commercially, rebellion is usually automatically "bad" and "evil", unless it's being carried out on behalf of all Chinese against a non-Chinese overlord e.g. the Qing. In a way the Communist revolution was un-Chinese, and they knew it.
Interesting observation! Since you mention it, I think I can "imagine" that. Due to my very limited knowledge and experience about Chinese (and everything else), I had never thought it that way. Basically I agreed with Mencius that a bad government do not have mandate from Heaven and thus can be toppled. Obviously, this view is not popular with those in power. :mrgreen:
But there are elites who would lose their rents if that happened. That's why they "educate" the people against it.
Sorry, I don't quite get you here. Against Republic of Taiwan or some kind of status as Hong Kong? Or both?
Last edited by niuc on Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by SimL »

Hi niuc & amhoanna,

Very interesting discussion indeed.
amhoanna wrote:I agree. Singapore kind of is another Chinese country. Yet the ROC probably has no reason to exist. But there's powerful vested interests that control the media in TW and tell us how important it is for the ROC to go on. I mean, it's okay for it to exist. Let's just not pretend that that means anything.
Yes, I read a statement related to this in some scholarly article once. The author was saying that the existence of Singapore was actually very important for a certain segment of the pro-independence Taiwanese: "look, here is a place where Han-stock people "emigrated" to, built a Han-based (but separate) identity, and ***they can have their own country***". Of course, the details are very different for Taiwan, but one can see the parallels, and how some people might like to emphasize the similarities.
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

Re Singapore... What U said, Sim, reminds me of a paper entitled "Formosa: More Like Luzon than Hainan" or something like that. It's online for all to read. There's a very strong case that TW (and its Han settlers) is historically LIKE any other Han-settled place in Nusantara. But Qing bureaucracy and a lack of distance from China made TW an exception!
I don't know much about Vietnamese history / heroes, yet if not mistaken they also conquered Champa.
True, Niuc. Most of the major tribes on the face of the earth aren't peaceful people. The VNese are Homo sapiens who pummeled their neighbors for hundreds of yrs and pummeled their Chinese overlords. This last part is what they celebrate in their lore, and this is their big break with Chinese tradition. In Chinese tradition, you're supposed to kowtow to your overlords almost always. There've been great thinkers and revolutionaries in Chinese history, but the creed of the people, including most of their leaders, is to kowtow to their colonizers while lying low and getting rich. The entire urban Chinese population of the planet is engaged in a group kowtow to Anglo-European culture as we speak. It makes me sick to my stomach to see "New China" lay down its law on Tibet and E Turkestan. They say it's a matter of pride, but if they had any pride, they'd go after the territories that Russia took from them first. But they don't have the guts to bash someone their own size. They should just admit it: "We have no pride. We maul Tibetans, but kowtow to white folks." Sometimes it's human nature to be cowardly. I can't say I'm a braver person myself. :oops:
Against Republic of Taiwan or some kind of status as Hong Kong? Or both?
Both!

A tangible example of how the current situation hurts islanders is the inability of the gahmen to sign free-trade agreements with any major country. Yet they can't benefit from China's FTAs the way HK can/does. "Republic of Taiwan" is the fighters' road. "Special Administrative District of Taiwan" is the moneymakers' way. The Republic of China is the worst alternative there is. But there are people who benefit from it. Guess what, they own most of the media.
niuc
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

Hi Sim & Amhoanna
SimL wrote:The author was saying that the existence of Singapore was actually very important for a certain segment of the pro-independence Taiwanese: "look, here is a place where Han-stock people "emigrated" to, built a Han-based (but separate) identity, and ***they can have their own country***".
amhoanna wrote:There's a very strong case that TW (and its Han settlers) is historically LIKE any other Han-settled place in Nusantara. But Qing bureaucracy and a lack of distance from China made TW an exception!
I concur. My late father told me something about someone who commented that Singapore was the 3rd China and the gahmen of S'pore objected to that (because that could cause racial issues). I am neither sure how accurate that story is, nor remember much details. From Hokkien point of view, indeed migrating to Taiwan was pretty much similar to migrating to Nusantara. Isn't there a saying like: te7-it4-ho2 ker3-huan1, te7-ji7-ho2 ker3-Tai5-wan1 第一好過番, 第二好過臺灣 ?
amhoanna wrote:
There've been great thinkers and revolutionaries in Chinese history, but the creed of the people, including most of their leaders, is to kowtow to their colonizers while lying low and getting rich.
So true! Also it seems that Hokkiens usually try to avoid politics. Among those I know, practically all want to be rich but I have yet to hear anyone aspiring to be a successful politician. My mom often says: kua*1-si1 liam5-thi1-thi1 官司(絲?)黏[][]. And I agree with her.
The entire urban Chinese population of the planet is engaged in a group kowtow to Anglo-European culture as we speak.
True also. I guess a lot of them don't like it either, and are waiting for their turn to "break free". But as you said, many don't mind to do it as long as they can get benefits. A (wrong?) application of 君子不吃眼前虧?
It makes me sick to my stomach to see "New China" lay down its law on Tibet and E Turkestan. They say it's a matter of pride, but if they had any pride, they'd go after the territories that Russia took from them first. But they don't have the guts to bash someone their own size. They should just admit it: "We have no pride. We maul Tibetans, but kowtow to white folks."
A friend from Guangzhou dismissed PRC gahmen's position regarding Taiwan as super hypocrite, as it didn't dare to claim Mongolia. I agree with both of you.
A tangible example of how the current situation hurts islanders is the inability of the gahmen to sign free-trade agreements with any major country. Yet they can't benefit from China's FTAs the way HK can/does. "Republic of Taiwan" is the fighters' road. "Special Administrative District of Taiwan" is the moneymakers' way.
I see. If I were a Taiwanese, I'd have chosen "Republic of Taiwan". Yet most probably for now it'd cause war and river of blood. Do you think that should PRC becomes more democratic (when?), Taiwan will have better chance to be recognized as it de facto already is?
The Republic of China is the worst alternative there is. But there are people who benefit from it. Guess what, they own most of the media.
真兮是: 刣頭生理有人做,虧本生理無人欲!
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

第一好過番, 第二好過臺灣
Right! They went to TW b/c they couldn't afford the fare to Manila. :mrgreen:

I guess by the time of this saying, though, people no longer thought of "ke Tai'oan" as a flavor of "ke hoan".
kua*1-si1 liam5-thi1-thi1
This means having a lot of lawsuits on your back? Something that happens to politicians?
A friend from Guangzhou dismissed PRC gahmen's position regarding Taiwan as super hypocrite, as it didn't dare to claim Mongolia. I agree with both of you.
Always interesting to hear what PRC people say in private!
I see. If I were a Taiwanese, I'd have chosen "Republic of Taiwan". Yet most probably for now it'd cause war and river of blood.
I think I would too! But true, we can't rule out the possibility of violence. Economic sanctions would be a given.

"The ROT" could've been a done deal with no side effects back in the '80s or earlier, but the ROC got in the way.
Do you think that should PRC becomes more democratic (when?), Taiwan will have better chance to be recognized as it de facto already is?
Free lunch! But first the army guys that live in N China would have to get what they deserve :mrgreen: Not impossible in a country full of deprived, unarmed guys...
刣頭生理有人做,虧本生理無人欲!
I hear this all the time, but still don't really get it. What's 刣頭生理 exactly?
amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Bali, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

Just wanted to add: someday we're all just gonna be ASEAN + 9, or ASEAN + whatever! :lol:
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