Benzi/Original character

[Yeleixingfeng]

Er.. I don't know the tones by numbers.. But the Penang Tau is quite the equal of the fourth tone of Mandarin.

[amhoanna]

That one is T2, aka 阴上

[Yeleixingfeng]

How to differentiate 陰 and 陽?

[Ah-bin]

In the guide to Penang Hokkien tones:

http://penanghokkien.com/?page_id=1194

These relate back to the traditional version of Hokkien tones as follows:

M = 陰平
R = 陽平 e.g. thâu = head 頭 lâng = person 儂 âng = red 紅
H = 上 lú = you 汝 kóng = to say, speak 講 chúi = water 水 hó = good
or the short version ending in -k, -t, -p or h = 陽入e.g. bah = meat 肉 khek = guest 客 chhut = to go out 出

L (class A) = 隱去 e.g. toā = big 大 ū = have 有 oā = language 話
L (class B) = 陽去 e.g. khoàⁿ = to look 看 pàng = to release 放 ài = to love, want 愛
or the short version ending in -k, -t, -p or h = 陰入入 e.g. jít = sun 日 goéh = moon 月 óh = to learn 學

[niuc]

Besides, someone mentioned tak-pai as originating from Tai-Kadai, and someone suggested tau, meaning also 次. Maybe the 本字 could be 兜, meaning how rounds someone have done it? I checked the sound, and it matches. It is 當候切, for convenience of research.

bc tau2 has the same meaning in TW.

It seems that tau2 with this meaning is not used in Bagan-ue. We use pai2, and also ker3 (過?), and even 次 chy3. Is ker3/kue3/ke3 in this sense is used in Taiwan or Penang or other places?

I saw 兜 being used in some Taiwanese resources as tau1, meaning a place. 阮兜 gun2-tau1 = our place = our home.

[amhoanna]

Yes, Niuc, tau for HOME is core vocab in TW. Is there a different word for this down south???

This tau also shows up in the phrase kha1 tau1, = co2 iu7 = THEREABOUTS. Seems like no one middleaged or younger ever uses khatau though.

In TW, pai2 is the "alpha" (most preferred) word for Chinese chu3 次, with kai2 and kai3 a close second and third. These are Sinitic (回) via JPese. After that comes tau2. Chu3 doesn't seem to be part of the vernacular, but I think I've heard it used in China. I've never heard koe3... Makes sense, tho. Sure sounds like Hoklo.

[amhoanna]

One more thing, Yelei. A guy named Tadpolenese among others has a great paper up on the web about how all Banlam-Teochew dialects hv low "running" 陽 tones and higher running 陰 tones. You can google it. I'm tech-impaired these days.

[niuc]

Thanks, Amhoanna.

Yes, Niuc, tau for HOME is core vocab in TW. Is there a different word for this down south???

In Bagan-ue, we also use gún/lín/in-tau for my/our/your/his/her/their home. Another word we use is nāi, e.g. gún-nāi, which I suspect is a contraction of gún-chù-lāi.

This tau also shows up in the phrase kha1 tau1, = co2 iu7 = THEREABOUTS. Seems like no one middleaged or younger ever uses khatau though.

Interesting! I had never heard of this. We say sin-pi*-tau 身邊兜 for human context and hù-kūn 附近 for others, or just pi*-áh 邊仔 for both, depends on context.

[Yeleixingfeng]

One more thing, Yelei. A guy named Tadpolenese among others has a great paper up on the web about how all Banlam-Teochew dialects hv low "running" 陽 tones and higher running 陰 tones. You can google it. I'm tech-impaired these days.

Believe me, I tried my best to understand Tadpolonese. (The song 《家後》 was nice though.) Maybe I lack of professional knowledge of Hokkien, I merely got through the standing-running tones part. (i.e. sandhi'ed tones being the real tone and the changed tone is actually the previously-known original tone.)

Thanks though, your recommend answered my Yin vs Yang question. ^^

[Yeleixingfeng]

By the way, why didn't anyone suggest 於 to be the ti7 (at/在)? www.chineseetymology.org said so, and it is seldom(not never) wrong.

And, strangely there are scarce 反切 sources to both 于 and 於. The nearest I got all pointed 於 to be the older form of 烏, hence sharing the pronunciation.

If not, what is then the literal pronunciation for 於(于)?