I made a a thread like this last year and got some very helpful responses:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8733&p=29932#p29932
I'd like to get back into Amoy Hokkien and I just have a question about the tones. The thing is I don't have a clue how to pronounce any of these. I know how to pronounce tones but I've never had to deal with technical explanations like this before, and I don't know how to translate this information into speech sounds.
What would REALLY help me are some recordings of the tones. I don't mean a dialogue or a video or whatever with spoken Amoy but like one of those youtube videos where the maker sits down and clearly pronounces for example each of Mandarin's 4 tones over and over. I'm very good at mimicing sounds I hear, but this technical mumbo-jumbo just ain't working for me.
I asked this question last year and no one stepped forward, but: it'd be so great if a speaker of this language would be so kind as to record each of the 7 tones super clearly (and all on the same syllable, so for example ma, má, mà, mah, mâ, má, mā and ma̍h would be sooooo helpful). Or if someone's already done that then let me know!
Someone just please help me pronounce these :) I honestly can't pronounce them if there's not some place I can hear them.
Or if anyone is familiar with Vietnamese and any of the tones in these 2 languages are identical/similar then tell me, that would also help. There's just so many things I don't understand here.
Thanks you guys :D
The 7 tones - Recordings?
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
Hi vaskimies,
I would be happy to do this for you in Penang Hokkien, but Amoy Hokkien isn't my native dialect, so I wouldn't dare to try!
I would be happy to do this for you in Penang Hokkien, but Amoy Hokkien isn't my native dialect, so I wouldn't dare to try!
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
Maybe you mean "Amoy Hokkien" in a broader sense, i.e. "the language that some call Hokkien, and others have called Amoy".
If U're strictly looking for pronunciations from the city of Amoy, this may be the wrong place to ask. Try Ispeakmin. We do have a native speaker of a very different dialect who lived in Amoy for some time, as well as a non-native Hokkien speaker with passive knowledge of a Taiwanese dialect that scholars call "the Amoy accent", and not w/o good reason.
You might want to ask for pronunciations of any or all dialects of Hokkien first, and take it from there. Nobody who is anybody speaks Hokkien in Amoy anymore, anyway.
(That's an exaggeration.)
Keep this in mind: the number of tones varies depending (a) on the dialect and (b) how they're being counted, and each tone actually consists of a so-called SANDHI or RUNNING tone as well as a CITATION or STANDING tone. Some folks act like it's all about the standing tones, but the running tones are just as important, and actually occur more frequently. They also enable communication between dialects, b/c they're more or less consistent across dialects, whereas standing tones are all over the place.
If U're strictly looking for pronunciations from the city of Amoy, this may be the wrong place to ask. Try Ispeakmin. We do have a native speaker of a very different dialect who lived in Amoy for some time, as well as a non-native Hokkien speaker with passive knowledge of a Taiwanese dialect that scholars call "the Amoy accent", and not w/o good reason.
You might want to ask for pronunciations of any or all dialects of Hokkien first, and take it from there. Nobody who is anybody speaks Hokkien in Amoy anymore, anyway.
(That's an exaggeration.) Keep this in mind: the number of tones varies depending (a) on the dialect and (b) how they're being counted, and each tone actually consists of a so-called SANDHI or RUNNING tone as well as a CITATION or STANDING tone. Some folks act like it's all about the standing tones, but the running tones are just as important, and actually occur more frequently. They also enable communication between dialects, b/c they're more or less consistent across dialects, whereas standing tones are all over the place.
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
And yeah, most tone contours in any Hoklo (Hokkien) dialect can be easily understood in terms of Vietnamese tones. High-falling-type tones are the exception.
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
There isn't much in Vietnamese that is close to Amoy Hokkien that I can hear.
Vietnamese là is similar to Amoy là (21)
Vietnamese lá is similar to Amoy lâ (35)
but that is about it.
la in Vietnamese drops down in pitch slowly at the end (like 443), no Amoy Hokkien tone does
lạ and lã are "creaky" tones, and have no corresponding tone in Amoy Hokkien.
I prefer to think that the basic building blocks of learning Amoy pronunciation are the citation tones, and also that there are no separate "running tones" in Amoy Hokkien (where does that term come from anyway? I notice people use it here, but every academic work I have seen calls them "sandhied" tones). What I mean by this is that each sandhied one in Amoy Hokkien corresponds to a citation tone, and that there is no contour that exists only in a sandhied form. Every tone on the right (sandhied tone) can be found in the column on the left (citation tone), this cannot be said for the opposite process, no tone ever sandhis to a 24 contour.
55 becomes 33
51 becomes 55
21 becomes 51
1 becomes 5
35 becomes 33
33 becomes 21
5 becomes 1
Vietnamese là is similar to Amoy là (21)
Vietnamese lá is similar to Amoy lâ (35)
but that is about it.
la in Vietnamese drops down in pitch slowly at the end (like 443), no Amoy Hokkien tone does
lạ and lã are "creaky" tones, and have no corresponding tone in Amoy Hokkien.
I prefer to think that the basic building blocks of learning Amoy pronunciation are the citation tones, and also that there are no separate "running tones" in Amoy Hokkien (where does that term come from anyway? I notice people use it here, but every academic work I have seen calls them "sandhied" tones). What I mean by this is that each sandhied one in Amoy Hokkien corresponds to a citation tone, and that there is no contour that exists only in a sandhied form. Every tone on the right (sandhied tone) can be found in the column on the left (citation tone), this cannot be said for the opposite process, no tone ever sandhis to a 24 contour.
55 becomes 33
51 becomes 55
21 becomes 51
1 becomes 5
35 becomes 33
33 becomes 21
5 becomes 1
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
Has it been "proven" that the running tones were derived from the standing tones? A lot of people just seem to assume this.
I think I get the standing / running terminology from Tadpolenese, but I'm not sure. I think I read a few papers written in Mandarin in the past which used the words 動 and 靜 instead of 変 and 本. The standing/running terminology assumes nothing. It also makes better use of the Anglo-Saxon word stock
Lots of books and teachers teach the tone wheel that you mentioned. My take on the tone wheel concept is that
1) It doesn't work across all dialects of Hoklo. It doesn't work for the "maritime Coanciu" type that we hear in parts of Coanciu, Klang, and the west shore of Taiwan.
2) Often it doesn't work that well, even when it does work. Does T3 "sandhi" to T2 in Mainstream TWese? For many speakers, T3 is 51-21, but T2 is 55-53. Okay, 53 vs. 51. Almost the same. Where do we draw the line? And many speakers have T4 = 5-32, T4b = 51-32, and T8 = 1-3. Others only have one "citation" checked-tone contour, that being 3. Where is the wheel?
3) Maybe the wheel is a useful tool ... for learners of some dialects ... but maybe it just makes things seem more complicated than they really are.
Re: Vietnamese, U are basically right, Ah-bin. The things U mentioned are the things that a VNese Hoklo-learner would need to internalize in order to go from speaking fluent Hoklo to speaking "accent-free" Hoklo. I also missed that there's no VNese equivalent for a high-level tone.
VNese tones are a good start, though. Countless VNese move to TW and after a few years we find them speaking brilliant Mandarin and often Hoklo as well w/ just a hint of a VN lilt. Sure there are probably Japanese and Europeans and Pin@ys and native Mandophones who've pulled this off as well. They are just much less common: after all, they've got more "ground" to cover!
I don't know much about the creaky tones, yet. Young guys and girls from the south don't seem to creak much, esp. guys. These are the demographics that surrounded me. I tend to forget that they weren't representative.
I think I get the standing / running terminology from Tadpolenese, but I'm not sure. I think I read a few papers written in Mandarin in the past which used the words 動 and 靜 instead of 変 and 本. The standing/running terminology assumes nothing. It also makes better use of the Anglo-Saxon word stock
Lots of books and teachers teach the tone wheel that you mentioned. My take on the tone wheel concept is that
1) It doesn't work across all dialects of Hoklo. It doesn't work for the "maritime Coanciu" type that we hear in parts of Coanciu, Klang, and the west shore of Taiwan.
2) Often it doesn't work that well, even when it does work. Does T3 "sandhi" to T2 in Mainstream TWese? For many speakers, T3 is 51-21, but T2 is 55-53. Okay, 53 vs. 51. Almost the same. Where do we draw the line? And many speakers have T4 = 5-32, T4b = 51-32, and T8 = 1-3. Others only have one "citation" checked-tone contour, that being 3. Where is the wheel?
3) Maybe the wheel is a useful tool ... for learners of some dialects ... but maybe it just makes things seem more complicated than they really are.
Re: Vietnamese, U are basically right, Ah-bin. The things U mentioned are the things that a VNese Hoklo-learner would need to internalize in order to go from speaking fluent Hoklo to speaking "accent-free" Hoklo. I also missed that there's no VNese equivalent for a high-level tone.
VNese tones are a good start, though. Countless VNese move to TW and after a few years we find them speaking brilliant Mandarin and often Hoklo as well w/ just a hint of a VN lilt. Sure there are probably Japanese and Europeans and Pin@ys and native Mandophones who've pulled this off as well. They are just much less common: after all, they've got more "ground" to cover!
I don't know much about the creaky tones, yet. Young guys and girls from the south don't seem to creak much, esp. guys. These are the demographics that surrounded me. I tend to forget that they weren't representative.
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
I think the proof comes from that most of the sandhied tones occur in isolated syllables as unsandhied tones, and that the sandhied tones can all be predicted from the unsandhied tones, and from comparison with other Chinese languages.Has it been "proven" that the running tones were derived from the standing tones? A lot of people just seem to assume this.
Hmmm...well I think I'll stick to the terms linguists use to describe sandhi, even if just to keep people as far away as possible from from the influence of tadpolenese. If Hokkien was written like that, I don't think I would have tried to learn it.I think I get the standing / running terminology from Tadpolenese, but I'm not sure.
Yes, I agree with that completely, but since vaskimies is only interested in learning the Amoy variety, the changes in these varieties (or those in Penang Hokkien) don't matter, I think. Bringing in all of these extra varieties is confusing for a beginner who has had little exposure to tonal languages.Lots of books and teachers teach the tone wheel that you mentioned. My take on the tone wheel concept is that
1) It doesn't work across all dialects of Hoklo. It doesn't work for the "maritime Coanciu" type that we hear in parts of Coanciu, Klang, and the west shore of Taiwan.
Is the tone wheel completely inaccurate as a description of tone sandhi for all varieties then? If so, it makes me wonder why it was invented in the first place. The earliest diagram (a table, not the wheel itself) I have seen of it was in Douglas, I think.2) Often it doesn't work that well, even when it does work. Does T3 "sandhi" to T2 in Mainstream TWese? For many speakers, T3 is 51-21, but T2 is 55-53. Okay, 53 vs. 51. Almost the same. Where do we draw the line? And many speakers have T4 = 5-32, T4b = 51-32, and T8 = 1-3. Others only have one "citation" checked-tone contour, that being 3. Where is the wheel?
In my own experience, I've never had any trouble being understood or been corrected on my tones by native speakers just by sticking to the tone wheel in Taiwanese. I think the tone wheel is fine for beginners, and they will naturally just pick up the accent ot those whose Hokkien they hear most often over time. The tones taught in beginners' Mandarin classes do not usually reflect the way they are actually spoken (the only book I have seen that gives a close guide to what actually goes on with the third tone is "Chinese for Dummies"), but learners eventually end up speaking good accentless Mandarin.
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
Well, Penang and Coanciu speakers actually have to go to the "sandhied" tone to tell T3 from T7, right? Or are U talking about something else?I think the proof comes from that most of the sandhied tones occur in isolated syllables as unsandhied tones, and that the sandhied tones can all be predicted from the unsandhied tones, and from comparison with other Chinese languages.
I remain open-minded to the possibility that the citation tones somehow spawned the running tones...
Come on now.Hmmm...well I think I'll stick to the terms linguists use to describe sandhi, even if just to keep people as far away as possible from from the influence of tadpolenese.
Actually, I "feel" the same way. In real life, though, Hokkien is barely written at all. Ta̍kgê còhoé lâi siá Ho̍hlóbûn!If Hokkien was written like that, I don't think I would have tried to learn it.
逐에做伙來寫허러文！
No, I haven't figured out a good way to lay the tones on with Hangeul.
Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
Thank you for the helpful responses everyone. Ah-bin has sent me a recording of the tones.
I'm curious though, do the tones really vary that much from dialect to dialect, for example Penang to Amoy, that no recording would work for every dialect (or at least most of them)? I know that words are going to take on different tones in different dialects and I'm guessing they also sandhi differently depending on dialect as well, but I'm talking about the tones themselves. Is á really pronounced that different in Xiamen than it is in for example Taiwan that I would need separate recordings for both dialects?
Furthermore, I'm familiar with the concept of tone sandhi (although have yet to learn it for this language) and I believe the deal in Amoy (or Min Nan as a whole) is that the syllables of a word pronounced in isolation are going to have a certain contour, whereas in a sentence, the tone of the syllable that follows is going to affect and change the tone of the preceding syllable, all depending on the aforementioned wheel. Okay, so with a "compound" word like "siaⁿ-tiāu" with the 1st tone on the first syllable and the 7th on the second syllable, has the tone of "siaⁿ" been sandhi'd by "tiāu" already, or will it sandhi to tone 7 once it gets placed in a sentence OR does it not sandhi at all because both syllables make up a single word?
Confusing question, that was.
I'm curious though, do the tones really vary that much from dialect to dialect, for example Penang to Amoy, that no recording would work for every dialect (or at least most of them)? I know that words are going to take on different tones in different dialects and I'm guessing they also sandhi differently depending on dialect as well, but I'm talking about the tones themselves. Is á really pronounced that different in Xiamen than it is in for example Taiwan that I would need separate recordings for both dialects?
Furthermore, I'm familiar with the concept of tone sandhi (although have yet to learn it for this language) and I believe the deal in Amoy (or Min Nan as a whole) is that the syllables of a word pronounced in isolation are going to have a certain contour, whereas in a sentence, the tone of the syllable that follows is going to affect and change the tone of the preceding syllable, all depending on the aforementioned wheel. Okay, so with a "compound" word like "siaⁿ-tiāu" with the 1st tone on the first syllable and the 7th on the second syllable, has the tone of "siaⁿ" been sandhi'd by "tiāu" already, or will it sandhi to tone 7 once it gets placed in a sentence OR does it not sandhi at all because both syllables make up a single word?
Confusing question, that was.Re: The 7 tones - Recordings?
Well I lost my long reply, and I can't be bothered writing it all out again.
The basic jist of it was that the first syllable in the word usually pronounced "am-mo" derives from "ang" = red. "ang" does not derive from "am". The shift from ang to am is because the second syllable begins with a bilabial. In the same way, sandhied tones in Hokkien derive from citation tones, and shift their contours because they are followed by another syllable in a compound.
In Choan-chiu and Penang the citation tones for T3 and T7 have merged, but their sandhied forms are still distinct. The fact that T3 and T7 are distinct in other varieties of Hokkien and in many other SInitic languages points to the originals being distinct in the ancestor varieties of Penang and Choan-chiu. They retained their distinction because it was retained in compound words, and people pronounced new compounds by analogy. It is extremely unlikely that Penang and Choan-chiu preserve some ancient original tonal system from which all other Sinitic languages have diverged.
I'll admit that I'm not open-minded about it, but I'll go and ask a friend of mine who is an expert in tone sandhi and see what he says.
The basic jist of it was that the first syllable in the word usually pronounced "am-mo" derives from "ang" = red. "ang" does not derive from "am". The shift from ang to am is because the second syllable begins with a bilabial. In the same way, sandhied tones in Hokkien derive from citation tones, and shift their contours because they are followed by another syllable in a compound.
In Choan-chiu and Penang the citation tones for T3 and T7 have merged, but their sandhied forms are still distinct. The fact that T3 and T7 are distinct in other varieties of Hokkien and in many other SInitic languages points to the originals being distinct in the ancestor varieties of Penang and Choan-chiu. They retained their distinction because it was retained in compound words, and people pronounced new compounds by analogy. It is extremely unlikely that Penang and Choan-chiu preserve some ancient original tonal system from which all other Sinitic languages have diverged.
I'll admit that I'm not open-minded about it, but I'll go and ask a friend of mine who is an expert in tone sandhi and see what he says.