Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

Speaking Hoklo-Teochew will take U places in most of SEA's port cities. Kwongcau 廣州 and Chimcùn 深圳 are no exception!

Last week on the flight I took from Thàikiaⁿ (Bangkok) to Chimcùn, U could hear Teochew being spoken up and down the aisles. I sat next to a young Teochew guy (Tn̂gsoaⁿ lâng) employed in some shady Bangkok-based Teochew syndicate. I mentioned a friend of mine came from Kiat'iông 揭阳. He said (in Mand), "So does that guy," referring to the guy in the row behind us who'd been talking in loud Teochew all the way from the people carrier onto the plane. I also met what seemed like a father-son-son's girlfriend trio where the lovers talked in Thai but the old man spoke to them in Teochew. I'm guessing they were headed for Teochew once they cleared customs.

A wide range of "Hokloid" languages are spoken in Canton. Teochew must be the unofficial third language of the city. I also hear a good deal of Ha̍kláu (Háihong/Lo̍k'hong and Soàⁿboé). This language sometimes sounds identical to Hokkien for one or two full sentences at a time. I also met a Lûiciu taxi driver who said many taxi drivers were Lûiciu in his part of town. Banlamese (surprisingly?) isn't spoken much here, not counting Haklau.

Teochew, Haklau, etc. are "underrepresented" wherever money is being spent, such as malls, esp., where Cantophones wield the cash, and other kinds of people use Canto and Mand to serve the moneyed classes. The 閩 tongues are "overrepresented" in the 城中村 sing-cung-chyns = GHETTOES where the migrant working class sleeps and shits.

Teochew and Haklau are much spoken where I live. By night, Taiwanese ballads and love songs waft in my window from the shops downstairs. "Choē ci̍t ê bô lâng se̍ksāi, chiⁿhūn ê só͘cāi..."

My 包租公 paau-cou-kung = GUY WHO RENTS ME MY ROOM is from Lo̍k'hong 陸豐 and speaks Ha̍kláu (and also Teochew). He says he can understand 70% of my Hoklo. He preferred to converse in Mandarin, and I had to say "Fair enough" to that when he tried to explain something to me in Haklau and I couldn't make heads or tails of it. Actually it was on an "advanced, modern-day topic" where probably few if any TWese, Amoy lâng or M'sians have ever gone using pure Hoklo.

Today in the eastern suburbs of town I was surprised to see a factory with a sign that said 正大XX工廠 CHIA TAI XX FACTORY. The boss was obviously Teochew/Haklau and proud of it, and not too proud to use that colloquial Hoklo. :P
Ah-bin
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Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by Ah-bin »

Ah, very interesting. I would sometimes hear it on the metro, but not much elsewhere. By the way do sell books and dictionaries for learning Teochiu on the second floor of the 圖書城 near 體育西路 station.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

Thanks for the shopping tip.

Imagine if the Party was paying Teochews to ride the subway, to make it seem like lots of people were using the subway. :mrgreen:

Teochews are a big part of the merchant class here. My paau-chou-kung actually said -- surprise -- that "Tiôsoàⁿlâng" are "the Jews of China".
amhoanna
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Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

Seen at the Canton Fair: a company from Hokkiàn with an honest-to-the-gods Hokkien name:
http://www.tanco.com.cn/en/
Some display samples packaged for the Arab countries caught my eye that time. Instead of "TAN" in the oval in their logo, it had Tân written in Arab script! I asked an employee if there were "Nanyang" ties, she said no. BTW her 話 was oā.

How do U guys say 1.65 or 1.95 (ringgit/SGD/dollars/yuan) in your variants? A vendor from Cio̍hsai threw such a figure at me with the word "kak" in there, it totally threw me off b/c I don't have much experience speaking Hoklo in places where cents/dimes count. :mrgreen:

During the last phase there was a section with vendors from overseas, inc. TW. One vendor had a swarm of salesladies, they handed me a name card w/ a TW address and I was like, Oh, you're a TW company, and they were like, Yeah, where're U from? I used the "Ngo hai Thoiwaan jan" line, and they actually had a (probably China-side) sales chick that spoke Canto natively. She instinctively picked up from there and talked to me all in Cantonese while the TWese staff laughed in surprise, like, "Huh, WTF?" It was great. At the next TWese vendor, they looked obviously TWese so I said, "Are U Taiwanese?" in English, and they said yeah, so I said Wo dou shi, in Mantonese/Cantarin, unintentionally. :lol: I knew they had to have been going "Huh?" in their heads -- I wish they would've just laughed in my face!! All in all, a strange place to meet the countrymen.
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by Mark Yong »

amhoanna wrote:
How do U guys say 1.65 or 1.95 (ringgit/SGD/dollars/yuan) in your variants? A vendor from Cio̍hsai threw such a figure at me with the word "kak" in there, it totally threw me off b/c I don't have much experience speaking Hoklo in places where cents/dimes count. :mrgreen:
In Penang and the Northern Malaysian states:
Dollar: khŌ
10 cents: pūat
1 cent: lūi

Some examples:
RM0.70 is 七鈸 chīt pūat
RM1.50 is 箍半 khŎ pŭaⁿ
RM2.00 is 兩箍(銀) nŎⁿ khŌ (gín)
RM3.20 is 三箍二 săⁿ khŌ jǐ
RM1.65 is 一箍六十五鐳 jǐt-khŌ lăk-căp-gŎ lūi

I think that should cover the key combinations! :lol:

The kāk you heard for 10 cents is used in other parts of Malaysia, including Singapore. As for 1 cent, that would be cīam.

Interestingly, when I was in Thailand a few years ago, a Thai-Chinese who spoke to me in Hokkien, pronounced 'baht' (as in the Thai currency) exactly the same way as pūat. Coincidentally, the ringgit-to-baht exchange rate at that time was exactly 1:10 - so e.g. RM0.70, i.e. 七鈸 chīt pūat would also be 7 baht, and RM3 would be 三十鈸 săⁿ-căp pūat!
niuc
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Location: Singapore

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

Amhoanna, cin-him-siān lí• neh!

Mark, interesting coincidence between Bath & RM then! Yes, 角 'kak4' and 'ciam1' (尖?) are used in Singapore, but the latter is seldom used nowadays.

$1.65 is cìt-kho• làk-kak-pùaⁿ. For me, it can be cìt-kho• làk-càp-gō•-sian, but that's hardly heard in Singapore.

Is baht 鈸 puàt in (Thai) Hokkien / Teochew? How does 泰銖 in Mandarin come from?
amhoanna
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Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by amhoanna »

Cin kámsiā ta̍kgê, cin chùbī.

What's the tone contour on 鈸 puāt? From Mark's choice of kanji, looks like this might be the same tone as ca̍p 十 TEN? Does it obey tone sandhi, if applicable?

In Northern M'sia U can say "kho͘gîn" for whole-ringgit amounts?

And what's the tone contour on "sian", Niuc? The word sián = CENT is used in TW. It's poetic but not uncommon. If I'm not mistaken, in TW it doesn't obey tone sandhi, i.e. it always takes a high-falling tone no matter what, e.g. in "saⁿ sián cîⁿ" = THREE CENTS.

The 鈸 usage is really interesting... Mark, I wonder if that guy was from the deep south of Thailand, close to Penang.

Here's a link on cari.com.my -- thanks to the Tionghoa Firewall, I'll have to let U guys handle this:

http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&sourc ... JQOlOA1v3A
niuc
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Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

Amhoanna, kámsiā, guân-lâi puàt sī tuī "baht" laî ë. So, 銖 is a "wrong" substitution of [金末]! 末 is buàt in my variant. Older generations in Bâ-gán know both 鈸 puàt, 角 kak and 尖 ciam, but younger ones usually use 仙 sian, most probably due to influence of Bahasa Indonesia ("sen", from cent).

Mark or others can confirm for Penang variant. In mine, puàt indeed has the same tone as 十 càp ( tone 8 ) and it does obey the tone sandhi. In my variant, sandhi/RT for tone 8 sounds much more similar (if not identical) to tone 3 rather than tone 4.

We also say both cìt-kho• and cìt-kho•-gûn for one dollar. So cent is sián (sian2) in TW. In my variant it is sian1 (I ever saw it written as 仙 in some Chinese media, either Mandarin or Cantonese, not sure if for Hokkien also), and it follows the usual tone sandhi (sian -> siān). E.g.:
Three cents is saⁿ-sian-cîⁿ (sandhi: sāⁿ_siān_cîⁿ)
Not much money -> beside: Bô-duā-cuē-lui/cîⁿ, we also say: Bô-kuí-kho•-gûn or Bô-kuí-sian-cîⁿ.
SimL
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by SimL »

Hi everyone,

I can confirm the Penang Hokkien usage of "khO", "puat" and "lui", exactly as described by Mark. [And yes, "puat8" has the same tone as "cap8".]

Indeed, the more "extended" expressions are "X khO-gin5" and "Y puat-ciN5", but I know of no equivalent for "lui", i.e. I never say "Z lui-ciN5" or any other word after "lui1".

Prior to the discussion here, I would have ventured the idea that that is because "khO1" and "puat8" are sinitic, whereas "lui1" is not, but apparently "puat8" probably isn't sinitic either!
SimL
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by SimL »

amhoanna wrote:Seen at the Canton Fair: a company from Hokkiàn with an honest-to-the-gods Hokkien name:
http://www.tanco.com.cn/en/
Nice!

Two remarks about the site:

1. http://www.tanco.com.cn/en/Products.asp ... r+Mushroom

Does anyone know what "Po-ku" mushrooms are? They look like the undried form of the common "hiauN1-kO1" 香菇.

2. http://www.tanco.com.cn/en/Products.asp ... her+Fruits

Looks like there's been some loss of final nasals in Modern "Hokkien" English too :mrgreen: ("madarin orange").
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