Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Locked
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by SimL »

SimL wrote:... I know of no equivalent for "lui", i.e. I never say "Z lui-ciN5" or any other word after "lui1".
This could be because (even) when I was young, inflation had resulted in 5 cents being the minimum normal unit of currency. Now, the -gin5, or -ciN5 additions were mostly used 1) (as Mark explains) when the quantity involved is a whole number, but also 2) when that whole number is less than or equal to 10. So, one has "cit khO gin", "nO khO gin", etc, to "peh khO gin", "kau khO gin", "cap khO gin"; but rarely "cap-it khO gin", "cap-ji khO gin" etc; and (I think) never "saN-cheng khO gin" etc. i.e. I see the "-gin" as adding something to pad out the phrase for small numbers. Similarly for "puat-ciN" (though this one has a natural limit anyway, because more than 9 "puat" already become "khO").

So - as one hardly had to make distinctions between (or even talk about) 1 cent, 2 cents, etc up to 8 cents, 9 cents in everyday conversation in my youth - one hardly had to add an extra syllable at the end, to pad out what was being said. I remember my father speaking about how - when he was very young - a bowl of mee cost half a cent, and an ice ball cost a quarter-cent (and they had coins for them too!). In such times, one would have had to speak about 1 cent, 2 cents, etc up to 8 cents, 9 cents in everyday conversation, so I'll ask him if he had a word to pad out the phrase, when the number of cents was between 1 and 10.

PS. This is how I feel the usage of "-gin" and "ciN" works in Penang Hokkien. It's apparently quite different for niuc's form, as he adds "-cin" to whole cents, even though he's younger than me, and has even less need to distinguish 1 - 9 cents in everyday conversation!
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by Mark Yong »

amhoanna wrote:
What's the tone contour on 鈸 puāt? From Mark's choice of kanji, looks like this might be the same tone as ca̍p 十 TEN? Does it obey tone sandhi, if applicable?
Okay, this is the part where I display my total ignorance of the tone numbering convention! :oops:

I believe the tone for pūat would be a mid-level tone (I believe it is tone #1, tone contour 44). Same tone when paired with chíⁿ (e.g. 七鈸 chît pūat chíⁿ).

The one exception I have observed is when paired with nŎⁿ, i.e. 兩鈸錢 nŎⁿ pŭat chíⁿ. In this case, some speakers tend to pronounce pŭat as a low-level tone, i.e. tone #7, tone contour 22.
amhoanna wrote:
The 鈸 usage is really interesting... Mark, I wonder if that guy was from the deep south of Thailand, close to Penang.
South, yes. But not that far south. This was at one of the chalets in Railay Beach, Krabi - which, technically, is more south-west. That said, I have encountered many Thai-Chinese at the Bukit Kayu Hitam/Sadao border who speak Hokkien, which sound a mid-way between the Northern and Southern states' varieties.
niuc wrote:
Yes, 角 'kak4' and 'ciam1' (尖?) are used in Singapore, but the latter is seldom used nowadays.
I did initially consider for ciam1, but there is a problem. Malaysian Cantonese (if one assumes that it is reliable in the first place!) pronounces it as câm (tone contour 55), which is different from the Cantonese pronunciation of , which is cîm (also tone contour 55). One candidate character that fits this condition would be , but admittedly I have not done an exhaustive search for others yet.
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

SimL wrote:It's apparently quite different for niuc's form, as he adds "-cin" to whole cents, even though he's younger than me, and has even less need to distinguish 1 - 9 cents in everyday conversation!
Hahaha! Sim, you are so right, especially if you mean Indonesian rupiah! :lol: My variant uses both 'sian' and 'sian-cîⁿ', 'kho•' and 'kho•-gûn', 'tún' and 'tún-gûn'. The second part of each pair is usually used for emphasis. Beside meaning "cent", we also use 'sian' to mean a small amount of money, e.g. bô-kuí-sian(-cîⁿ); bô-puàⁿ-sian(-cîⁿ).
Mark Yong wrote: I did initially consider for ciam1, but there is a problem. Malaysian Cantonese (if one assumes that it is reliable in the first place!) pronounces it as câm (tone contour 55), which is different from the Cantonese pronunciation of , which is cîm (also tone contour 55). One candidate character that fits this condition would be , but admittedly I have not done an exhaustive search for others yet.
Thanks, Mark. May be 針 is the one, yet it is pronounced as 'cam' in my variant. Another reason why 尖 sounds possible for me is its "natural" pairing with 角 e.g. in a saying in Bagan: 人兮話, 三尖六角 (lâng ê uē, saⁿ-ciam làk-kak), but here it means thorny, not 63 cents. :P
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by SimL »

niuc wrote:My variant uses both 'sian' and 'sian-cîⁿ', 'kho•' and 'kho•-gûn', 'tún' and 'tún-gûn'. The second part of each pair is usually used for emphasis.
Hi niuc,

What does the "tún" mean?
Yeleixingfeng
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

Make way for the noob >.<:
Where is '錢' (sorry, I don't know how to type POJ) normally used? Because in my area I have never heard 錢 or 銀 or 針 being used regularly; we use lui. Is it just among the older generations?

And, since puat might be foreign, then how does 鈸 fit into the story? In Mandarin it means cymbals... Any idea how the meaning shifted? Or it is just a loan, like 鐳 for lui?

I live in Penang - just to clarify stuff..
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

SimL wrote:Hi niuc,

What does the "tún" mean?
Hi Sim

盾 tún actually means a shield. It has been borrowed to mean Dutch "gulden" (荷蘭盾 Hô-lan-tún) used in Dutch Indies and now Indonesian "rupiah" (印尼盾 Ìn-nî-tún).

In Singapore, 盾囝 tún-kiáⁿ means coins. In my variant, we call coins 銅仙 tâng-sian or 銅仙錢 tâng-sian-cîⁿ or tâng-sian-lui. (Similar to 盾, 仙 - immortal - is borrowed to mean " a cent".)
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by SimL »

niuc wrote:
SimL wrote:Hi niuc,

What does the "tún" mean?
Hi Sim

盾 tún actually means a shield. It has been borrowed to mean Dutch "gulden" (荷蘭盾 Hô-lan-tún) used in Dutch Indies and now Indonesian "rupiah" (印尼盾 Ìn-nî-tún).

In Singapore, 盾囝 tún-kiáⁿ means coins. In my variant, we call coins 銅仙 tâng-sian or 銅仙錢 tâng-sian-cîⁿ or tâng-sian-lui. (Similar to 盾, 仙 - immortal - is borrowed to mean " a cent".)
Hi niuc,

Thanks, very interesting!

Wow, the variation in Hokkien never ceases to amaze me! I would have had no idea what someone was talking about, if I had heard them say "tún-kiáⁿ" or "tâng-sian". In Penang, I always said "suaN3-lui1" (= "loose money") for coins. I think (perhaps Mark or Andrew can confirm?) that the opposite, i.e. "paper money, banknotes" was "cua2-ji7" (literally "paper figures", I think). So: "ai-a, wa bo suaN-lui liau, kan-nia u cua-ji" (= "Blast, I don't have any loose change, only notes").
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

Yeleixingfeng wrote:Make way for the noob >.<:
A smart one, nonetheless! :lol:
Where is '錢' (sorry, I don't know how to type POJ) normally used? Because in my area I have never heard 錢 or 銀 or 針 being used regularly; we use lui. Is it just among the older generations?
Others will answer you about their usage in Penang. 錢 is used in Taiwan & PRC, where lui is hardly known. [Friends, please correct me if I am wrong about this.]

Both 錢, 銀 and lui are used in my variant (Bagansiapiapi, Riau - Sumatra, from 同安話), while 針/尖 is very seldom heard. All these are heard also in Singapore, with different frequency.
And, since puat might be foreign, then how does 鈸 fit into the story? In Mandarin it means cymbals... Any idea how the meaning shifted? Or it is just a loan, like 鐳 for lui?
Yes, like 鐳 for lui, 鈸 is used due to its pronunciation and its 部首 (金). For more, you can refer to the link in Amhoanna's posting above. I copy & paste here for easy access:
http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&sourc ... JQOlOA1v3A
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by niuc »

SimL wrote: Wow, the variation in Hokkien never ceases to amaze me!
Isn't it great, Sim? :mrgreen:
In Penang, I always said "suaN3-lui1" (= "loose money") for coins.
This is used in my variant too, but it can also include small banknotes e.g. $2 or Rp1000.
that the opposite, i.e. "paper money, banknotes" was "cua2-ji7" (literally "paper figures", I think).
Cuá-jī 紙字 indeed means banknotes. Yet in my variant now it means money, including coins. For banknotes, we say cuá-lui (interestingly, never cuá-cîⁿ).
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field

Post by SimL »

niuc wrote:
Where is '錢' (sorry, I don't know how to type POJ) normally used? Because in my area I have never heard 錢 or 銀 or 針 being used regularly; we use lui. Is it just among the older generations?
Others will answer you about their usage in Penang. 錢 is used in Taiwan & PRC, where lui is hardly known. [Friends, please correct me if I am wrong about this.]
For most of my life, I thought I didn't know the Hokkien version of , but when I learnt that it was pronounced "ciN5" in Hokkien, and I learnt the Mandarin term 價錢 for "price", I began to think that I did know one place where is used in Penang Hokkien. Namely, in the Penang Hokkien word for 'price', which is 'kE3-ciN5" (sandhied: "kE1_ciN5"). [Now (just 5 minutes ago), I used the etymology page to check whether it was "kE2" or "kE3" (because both sandhi to "kE1_" in Penang Hokkien), and the page tells me not only that it's "kE3", but that my guess was in fact correct.]

So, 價錢 'price' is a common word in Penang Hokkien where is used (at least, I hope it's still common, 40 years later...). But - as Yeleixingfeng suggested by his original question - I don't think it's commonly used by itself, or in any other common compounds. [Other Penang Hokkien speakers please correct me if I'm wrong!]

BTW, I've also known the word "bang2-ta3" (= "mosquito net") for years too, but never knew what the "ta3" was. Then, when I started learning Mandarin, I came across the word 罩乳*. I then found out that actually means "cover" (I wouldn't have guessed it from the meaning of 罩乳...). For some reason - I don't know how any more - I then discovered that this was pronounced "ta3" in Hokkien. I hence started to have the strong suspicion that "bang2-ta3" might be 蚊罩. And lo and behold: the etymology page confirms (again, just 5 minutes ago) that this is the case.

Both these examples show how my learning of Mandarin can give me very valuable insights into Hokkien; insights I would never otherwise have had.

Notes:
*: 罩乳 - I initially learnt it as the word for "bra", but apparently, 胸罩 is the more common term in Mandarin.

PS.
Yeleixingfeng: do you know about http://www.internationalscientific.org ? [For some reason, I call it the "etymology page". Perhaps that was its name in the distant past, when I first discovered it.]

I think it's a great page. You put in the Chinese character you're interested in, in the search box (labelled "Etymology"), and it then produces information about its written etymology - the sort of stuff you like, about what the character looked like in oracle, bronze, and seal scripts. Not only that, if you scroll down a little and click on the link "Taiwanese (臺灣話): Analyze", then it takes you to a page where the Hokkien (in this case, specifically Taiwanese) pronunciation of the character is given, AND it gives lots of compounds where that character is used. I consider it to be a vital resource in my learning about Hokkien, and have recommended it often to readers of this Forum (I mention it now again, only because you're relatively new here).

In my next reply on this thread, I'll list whatever compounds of that I come across there, which I'm familiar with from Penang Hokkien - I've discovered one (very unexpected) compound already!
Locked