Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

[Ah-bin]

Yes! the -t -p -k are all LMC (except for a few things like lát) and if they weren't there, I suppose it would all be just glottal stops, like Wu languages.

[niuc]

That 發 for puh is probably correct, I believe it's just the vernacular cognate of literary hoat. I'm pleased to finally come across it in a word. Some of the old vernacular readings have been replaced completely by the Late Middle Chinese borrowings.

Great to know this, thanks Ah-bin!

I often try to imagine what Hokkien would sound like without the Late Middle Chinese component. I suppose hoat-bêng 發明 would be pronounced as puh-miâ, and hong-súi 風水 as puiⁿ-chúi.

Hmm, seemingly it would sound quite different. Although it's kind of complicated to have 讀冊音 and 白話音, actually I like the combination, e.g. when I hear 'miâ', my first thought is 名; while for 'bîng', it's 明. So now when I hear 'puh-miâ', I think of "sudden appearance of a name". Puiⁿ-chúi in my variant is png-chúi/cúi/tsúi; it makes me think of "asking someone for water".

Yes! the -t -p -k are all LMC (except for a few things like lát) and if they weren't there, I suppose it would all be just glottal stops, like Wu languages.

So the -t -p -k did exist, though not as prevalent as in LMC, in Old Chinese (and EMC?) or only -t? Wikipedia article seems to say (if I understand it correctly) that in OC there were -p, -t, -k or -kʷ and -s.

Does 白話音 come from OC or EMC?
Including miâ 明名, sa* 三衫, ti* 甜 as "original" OC or EMC?
Or the nasalization of vowels (and initials e.g. b->m, or actually the otherway round?) were due to process of losing -n/-m/-ng?

[Ah-bin]

I think most of the Sinitic languages we know today postdate Old Chinese, or split after the Old Chinese phase. The -p -t -k were probably there in older Hokkien, were worn down to -h at some time and then the -p -t -k were reborrowed during T'ang times. In Teochiu they were reborrowed and then worn down to -k and -p (I think) again!

白話音 by definition is the stratum that pre-dates Late Middle Chinese (apart from the non-Sinitic words like bah, pai, and perhaps kha).

As far as I have read there was a great de-nasalisation of n and m to l and b, but only in the literary stratum. I am not sure why or when.

Sorry I can;t offer a more detailed explanation of it.

[SimL]

As far as I have read there was a great de-nasalisation of n and m to l and b, but only in the literary stratum. I am not sure why or when. [...]

As far as I know, there was also a denasalization of "ng-" "to "g-", right?

My regret was that "n-" didn't go to "d-", because then Hokkien would have had all 3 of the common voiced stops b-, d-, g-, instead of only the first and third. [Well, I'm aware that in some variants it went to a "l-/j-" which sounds very similar to a "d-" (while in other variants, it's a very distinctive "l-" or "j-"). I think niuc has posted about the "l-"/"j-"/"d-" variation in Hokkien in the past.]

[niuc]

Thank you, Ah-bin, your explanation helps me to understand better.

Yes Sim, in my variant actually j- becomes d- or between d- & l-, but I think many may not realize and therefore mix them (d- & l-) in usage. E.g. 汝 and 女 lí• (= lír / ly2) are often pronounced as (or close to) dí•.

Citing those, now I found this interesting: in Mandarin, 女 is nü3, but 汝 is ru3. R- in Mandarin usually corresponds to j- in Hokkien (d- in my variant) and n- to l-; so it seems that n-/r- & l-/d- "mixing/switching" is found in Mandarin also?

Personally I sense a clear difference between 辣 luàh and 熱 duàh. I think many still do, yet it seems to me that quite a number of Bâ-gán-lâng pronounce both as (or close to) duàh. I agree with Sim that it would be better if n- went to d-; and j- retained in my variant.

[amhoanna]

Interesting. Vietnamese quốc ngữ uses "d" for the sound pronounced [z] in the north, and [j] from about Danang on down. (I'm sure there's a story behind that, but I don't know it.)

[Ah-bin]

Here is the beginning of another round of questions, about some things I hear or read but cannot find in dictionaries:

1) Phòa khang-thâu 破空頭

What exactly does this mean? I heard John Ong say

"Màng phòa wá ê khang-thâu!" I am guessing it is something like "don't let my secret slip out!"

2) "tok" bít-goéh

To go on a honeymoon. I know the 蜜月 bit well enough, but what does this "tok" mean? Is it actually "toh"?

3) What are the tones and characters for "Lam-mu-na" meaning "purple"
This is the normal PGHK word for it, (I wonder about Bagansiapiapi) I am guessing the lam is actually lâm 藍

4) Cambodia

I know that PGHK approximates the old Sanskrit name as borrowed into Malay - something like Kem-po-jia, rather than the Kàn-po•-chē 柬埔寨 in Campbell's "Dictionary of the Amoy Vernacular" but I have no idea what the exact pronunciation might be and I can't find this in any dictionary.

5) Thoa-kek for the trailer on a car

拖 is easy, but what about kek?

6) Next month

Is it Āu-goéh-jít 後月日 or Ē•-goéh-jít 下月日? Or does Āu-goéh-jít mean "the month after next", like āu-jít 後日means "the day after tomorrow"? I'm also aware that some speakers use -kò-goéh -個月 instead of -goéh-jít -月日, especially when counting months

Right, that's enough for one go, I think. Questions 2-6 are all questions I have from Tan Choon Hoe's book.

Many thanks in advance for all your help.

[Mark Yong]

1. khang-thâu 空頭 by itself basically means an opportunity, normally in the context of 'a way out of the current situation'. In the context of John Ong's sentence, it probably means the person whom he was speaking to 'spoiled' that opportunity (perhaps by divulging a secret, but not necessarily so).

2. I would place my bets that it is 度蜜月. As to why 度 ended up with a -k ending, I can only hazard a guess: In Cantonese, 度 has two (2) readings: Without the -k ending, it is the noun "degree"; with the -k ending, it is the verb "to measure" (normally used in the context of 度身 “take body measurements for tailoring"). I have also heard people pronounce it with the voiced -k, it does not make sense in this usage.

6. "Next month" is either Ē•-kò-goéh 下個月 or Ē•-goéh-jít 下月日. Āu-kò-goéh 後個月 or Āu-goéh-jít 後月日 mean "the month after next". It's the same pattern as for days. As to whether it is kò-goéh 個月 or goéh-jít 月日 depends on the speaker. I use kò-goéh 個月.

Notice how I have done two (2) naughty things:
1. Manfully avoided Questions (3) through (5)
2. Conveniently borrowed all your tone markings (since I am shiate at them!)

[SimL]

I can only confirm your assertion about the normal Penang Hokkien word for "purple". For myself, I pronounce it "lam-mn-a" (i.e. [m-schwa-n]), and thinks of the "lam" indeed as 藍. I think I randomly say "kò-goéh" or "goe(h)-jít".

I'm afraid all the other questions go beyond my sphere of knowledge...

[amhoanna]

Looking forward to what U guys find out about PURPLE. Exotic mixed Sino-Indic parentage, maybe??

"Āu kò goe̍h" is interesting. This would mean NEXT MONTH in TW. Goe̍hji̍t is used too. People under 60, i.e. the Mandarin-educated, seem to use "kò goe̍h" almost to the exclusion of "goe̍hji̍t".