HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

[Yeleixingfeng]

Exams.. Might be quite inactive these days.

Amhoanna,
Haha, yeah, we come in different perspectives. To be honest, I really don't understand your post at all - not the literal part, but as a whole why creoles should remain as creoles. Never mind. We respect each other. ^^

Mark Yong,
It costed nothing on the net. >.< Besides, I don't think my parents would want to waste RM30 on something non-academical related. Some of his/her punjis were wrong, I think. And s/he failed to explain thoroughly regarding the grammatical closeness between Early Chinese and Hokkien - or maybe I don't understand her.

[amhoanna]

To be honest, I really don't understand your post at all - not the literal part, but as a whole why creoles should remain as creoles.

I'd boil it down to two main reasons why:

1) POETRY

In the Americas, at least, Creoles "bring" stronger rhythm. Not sure about Chavacano Zamboanguense, but I love the "hustle and flow" of the Street Malay that comes out of Jakarta. It's rich, gritty and strong.

2) POLITICS

When any tribe believes that their language is a corrupted, no-good version of some other language, they are always at the same time giving up political clout in return for nothing. So, more power to Chî Sūncoân 徐順全. U know what's interesting, if Harry Lee would've "left Hokkien alone", Hokkien would've probably evolved into the (or "a") key language of the Singaporean workplace, and most migrant workers would face a barrier based on language alone, much as they do when they go to HK. Talk about "backfire". Creole or not, those who don't "stand by their tongue" will almost always lose out.

[Yeleixingfeng]

1) POETRY

In the Americas, at least, Creoles "bring" stronger rhythm. Not sure about Chavacano Zamboanguense, but I love the "hustle and flow" of the Street Malay that comes out of Jakarta. It's rich, gritty and strong.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about that. Lol, I don't even have the right to doubt that - I haven't heard Jakarta Malay in my whole entire life, and the the pronunciation (not grammar) of Malay in Penang is very much baku. For example, -a are pronounced as -a, not -e or -oh. Nothing flowing about that - I think.

2) POLITICS

When any tribe believes that their language is a corrupted, no-good version of some other language, they are always at the same time giving up political clout in return for nothing. So, more power to Chî Sūncoân 徐順全. U know what's interesting, if Harry Lee would've "left Hokkien alone", Hokkien would've probably evolved into the (or "a") key language of the Singaporean workplace, and most migrant workers would face a barrier based on language alone, much as they do when they go to HK. Talk about "backfire". Creole or not, those who don't "stand by their tongue" will almost always lose out.

This I totally agree. But this doesn't explain your previous post. Never mind, I will quote, since I have plenty of time now, replying on a computer. ^^

夜雷星蜂, I think I'm coming at all this from a different angle than U. That's why I partly disagree. For me, this is personal, so, "Don't mind me." As I mentioned, or speculated, it's like mankind has a gene that makes well-fed specimens look down on creoles and creole-like tongues. Lower-class folk speak them, middle-class folk despise them, and working-class people work their butts off so their kids can stop swearing in them. Let's take the lingua franca of this forum: English. American Black English -- one of my "childhood dialects" -- just has this groove, this "hustle and flow". It's raw and direct even when it ain't crude, like a fine-tuned yen for sex. It's got so much rhythm U can touch it. It's so "there" that U can move it to your kitchen and eat on it. U can pull it down out of the air and chop wood with it. No mistake it's the language of hip-hop and the blues and the rhythm-and-blues. Even rock and pop speaks a sister dialect. Yet Black English is ostracized from print media and much of the economic life of the English-speaking world ... in favor of Suburban Cubicle English with its big words, set phrases, and set sentences.

If all this is true for Black English, it's ten times truer for the "somehow related" "real" creoles like Jamaican Patois, Gullah, Trinidadian Creole...

This = blur, but maybe it is because I am not exposed to creoles, at all. And since I am not exposed to them I don’t think I would despise them. So, I am going to leave it as it is. >.< By the way, is Hokkien a Creole language? If so then I would need to revise the definition of creoles. How do you differentiate between creoles and pidgins? I remember they are quite yin-yang in concept…

Let's take almost any paragraph here on this forum. Then imagine having to get the same points across, but w/o words like "historically" or "deficient". For better or worse, it would make us have to think harder and think clearer, in order to get our points across. Words like "historically" may be "precise", but they tempt us to use them in imprecise ways. Creoles may lack such precise, intellectual words, but in turn they take a dialog and tie it back to sun and stars and wine and dine. The way we were. And in the end we still get there if we try to "say it in creole". It's the stereotypical social sciences academics -- stereotypical! -- that spend decades of their life using big, used-to-be-precise words to say and prove a whole lot of nothing. Say it like U mean it! Social science degree candidates should all have to learn a creole...

This I understand.
The Free Dictionary defines ‘historic’ as ‘based on or concerned with events in history’ – one of its three meanings. I know deficient is basically just lack, though I think it is necessary that English has this in its vocabulary, but more profound words like historical, you can express it in simple words, but it would be long-winded. And, I don’t think it makes us to think harder and clearer – it increases either our reliance to another vocabulary-wise superior language or the time taken to express a certain idea.
For example, let’s take 賣肉仒儂. It takes just one people to coin it, and everyone would just need to follow – no thinking. It makes no difference, besides number of syllable – which ultimately is a minus point for Hokkien, to say butcher and ‘he who sells meat’, since when our brain crystallises the image of a man selling meat we automatically use the word butcher, or some other suitable vocabulary you have previously heard of – there’s no thinking. In fact, to think consciously about how to express an idea, that itself slows down your thinking. Therefore, many resort to simply borrowing from the language they were educated in; I wouldn’t feel surprised if anyone prefers the two-syllable butcher over the four-syllable 賣肉仒儂.

Links between the words in a language... That is key, from a writer's POV. Take the word phoekoán. Great links to phoe and koán. Lu̍t'sukoán? Again, good links. So why iûkio̍k and lu̍t'su sūbūsó͘? Bô hoeh bô ba̍ksái. What if they all co-existed? That's the state that bahasa Indonesia is in, I think... It does allow for many styles.

How does ‘Bô hoeh bô ba̍ksái’ relate to a post office? Or did I read wrong – hoeh is 血 right? *sheepish* But I think I understand your point.
That is the problem with POJ – it is not universal. And with that, how can we expect every Hokkien-speaking community to converse fluently – written or verbal – when they don’t even share the same vocabulary? From the letters phoe alone, who would think of 批? You need to know beforehand that 批舘 together means a post office, to understand the hidden logic between phoe and koán. Personally I prefer iûkio̍k – 郵 is used since Han for this specific meaning, from zdic. This aspect of 批 however is restricted to Hokkien only.
Note: I am not against 批舘, please. >.< I am just saying in this aspect Mandarin wins.

To sum up, and get back on-topic... I mean, yeah, I think it's great to have lots of vocabulary in a language, unless U're an adult learner. Imagine -- I mean, imagine -- if somehow there was a mass Speak Hoklo and Write Hoklo movement, starting with pissed-off Singaporeans and TWese who feel that their gahmens robbed them of their language, and somehow this movement stuck, and spread, leading to Hoklo education, Hoklo mass media, and a Hoklo netscape. Now imagine if the new Hoklo idiom were to take in words and expressions from every kind of Hoklo we discuss on this forum, and others. Imagine if TWese could understand PgHK the same way an Australian understands a Black North American, and if Kuching Hoklophones borrowed words from Medan, and if all Hokkien speakers had hundreds of Teochew words in their vocab for dealing with fine emotional or logical nuances...

I don’t think an Australian would understand a black North American, given the unique vocabulary and so-called slang words of the North Americans. Australians have a different khiauN (腔) too which makes it quite difficult to understand. And, this is not a coincidence. Languages tend to diverge/localise.
Thus, I stress again, I am not against 調羹 and 土粉. As you pointed out, I am all for expressivity and nuances, but you can’t expect every Hokkien speaker to know the nuances of different Hokkien regions – not to mention Teochew vocabulary. Only a linguist would be interested.

I hope I understood your post correctly.

[Ah-bin]

If so then I would need to revise the definition of creoles. How do you differentiate between creoles and pidgins? I remember they are quite yin-yang in concept…

The difference is that a creole is a full language passed on as a native first language that can express everything its speakers wish to say, whereas a pidgin is learnt nly as a secondary language and limited to certain purposes. It is like the difference between Baba Malay (a fully developed creole that has been used to write and translate books) and Bazaar Malay (a similar but limited version used for certain purposes such as trade). An English parallel might be Tok PIsin in Papua New Guinea (the creole) and China Coast Pidgin (the pidgin). Tok Pisin is the native first language of thousands in Papua New Guinea, whereas China Coast Pidgin was just used for trade with foreigners along the south China coast, and was learnt as an auxilliary language for that purpose only.

Penang Baba Hokkien I would definitely call a creole language. It is a mixture of Hokkien and Malay lexical items, as well as influence from Malay and English grammar and was the native language of the Penang Babas.

Some creole languages become remarkably successful, like Tok Pisin and Sranan Tongo in Suriname (and parts of the Netherlands). Tok Pisin is taught in schools, and has its own daily newspapers and tv shows which unfortunately is more than I can say for any kind of Hokkien.

I think one needs to be realistic about the status of Hokkien at present. It is all very well looking for characters and inventing words on internet forums. But the real problem for Hokkien is not a lack of words for abstract concepts, it is that parents are neglecting to speak their home languages to their children, and (worst of all) native Hokkien speakers are starting to speak Mandarin and English to each other instead of their own language. I also think the most important thing is to restore Hokkien, Hainanese, Hakka etc as the primary languages for communication within the family and between friends. Once the basic language is strong at home and among friends, people will start inventing, or finding out, or using their own words for things that they need to talk about.

As for syllable counts, I am not sure, but my feeling is that English loses to Hokkien for eveyrday vocabulary most of the time, even to long-winded Hokkien. Have a look at how many two-syllable Hokkien words correspond to something longer in English.

I don’t think an Australian would understand a black North American, given the unique vocabulary and so-called slang words of the North Americans. Australians have a different khiauN (腔) too which makes it quite difficult to understand. And, this is not a coincidence. Languages tend to diverge/localise.

I would say from experience that most Australians definitely do understand North American Black English because they are used to hearing it on TV, but some Americans do sometimes have trouble understanding some Australians, because they rarely get to hear Australians speak. The only reason why Hokkien speakers are not exposed to each other's vocabulary is that there is no Hokkien mass media, so the varieties tend to develop in isolation. Cantonese works the opposite way, and the influence of Hong Kong is strong in Malaysia through TV and films. 1950's Cantonese in Malaysia used hung-mou-yan 紅毛人 rather than gwai-lou 鬼佬, but now it follows Hong Kong usage.

[amhoanna]

Creoles vs. pidgins, creoles vs. mixed languages: there are grey areas. For creoles vs pidgins, one litmus test, in my mind, is whether it has "native speakers" adhering to a uniform (though evolving) set of grammar rules.

Whether or not a language is a creole has to do with typology on one hand, and history on the other. General Hoklo is typologically anything but a creole. It's way too complex.

Not sure if Penang Baba Hokkien and Medan Hokkien are a creole so much as a mixed language. Were there shifting speakers? In the case of Penang Hokkien, at some pt there were no doubt lots of Hoisan and maybe Teochew speakers shifting to Hokkien.

The only reason why Hokkien speakers are not exposed to each other's vocabulary is that there is no Hokkien mass media, so the varieties tend to develop in isolation.

Amen!

the pronunciation (not grammar) of Malay in Penang is very much baku.

I've seen this term "baku", and "bahasa baku", a few times. What does it mean? Does it mean STANDARD?

This = blur, but maybe it is because I am not exposed to creoles, at all. And since I am not exposed to them I don’t think I would despise them. So, I am going to leave it as it is.

It's about poetry and politics.

American Black English is such a poetic dialect, yet it gets the cold shoulder even from some that spoke it growing up. I cringe on the inside when I hear black mothers yelling at their kids to talk standard English.

我差不多二十通岁 hit cūn, tng 着一寡真趣味, 真有意義仒経驗, 了後想 beh kā 寫做一本小說. At first I mostly wrote in standard English. Friends dug my drafts, but it didn't feel right to me, not one bit. I went on a voyage, both inner and outer, to learn how to write just as I spoke. In the end I wrote two novellas, one called ATLANTIS LOVED KILIMANJARO, the other FAST CARS MATE 4 LIFE. They are on the web. The "interesting" thing is that most of the same friends refused to read it b/c they found the dialect illegible, even though they would've understood it just fine in spoken form.

Then again, the few friends that really read the final work ... didn't seem to like it much, on its merits, and I can't blame them.

For example, let’s take 賣肉仒儂.

This sounds like something I would say, i.e. English-speaker Hoklo. A native Hoklophone makes nouns just by adding an 仒, e.g. 賣肉仒. And in speech, at least in TW and Amoy, this would only be two syllables. This said, there might also be a specific word for BUTCHER in some kinds of Hoklo.

That is the problem with POJ – it is not universal.

What's universal? Not everybody on this forum reads hanji at speed and with ease. Many words in Hoklo don't go with existing hanji. 何麼 for hami̍h? Hardly universally accepted. “Historically,” POJ is probably the most universal writing system Hoklo has ever had. Let's face it, most Hoklophones before the 20th cen. couldn't read hanji. Yet I agree, I don't think POJ is “the answer”. U want to find a universal system of writing for Hoklo? Join the club. This is something we would universally like to see. In the meantime, why not learn POJ? Even (y)our Mandarin-educated brothers on Ispeakmin know it and use it.

And with that, how can we expect every Hokkien-speaking community to converse fluently – written or verbal – when they don’t even share the same vocabulary?

Right back to Ah-bin's post.

As for sharing the same vocabulary, this is an interesting point. I think most Hoklo dialects have become lexical outliers through contact with Japanese, Malay, Mandarin, English, Cantonese. The most “universal” Hoklo would probably be the most “original” Hoklo. Bâgán'oē of Sumatra should definitely be in the running for this. Not to put any pressure on Niuc.

There's also plenty of room for borrowing between dialects, and not just between linguists.

You need to know beforehand that 批舘 together means a post office,

As in, actually SPEAK Hokkien?

[SimL]

I've seen this term "baku", and "bahasa baku", a few times. What does it mean? Does it mean STANDARD?

Well guessed! I didn't know it either, but http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahasa_baku links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_language.

What can't one find on Wikipedia these days!

Then again, the few friends that really read the final work ... didn't seem to like it much, on its merits, and I can't blame them.

Gosh, both you and yeleixingfeng have written novels. Impressive!

[Yeleixingfeng]

This sounds like something I would say, i.e. English-speaker Hoklo. A native Hoklophone makes nouns just by adding an 仒, e.g. 賣肉仒. And in speech, at least in TW and Amoy, this would only be two syllables. This said, there might also be a specific word for BUTCHER in some kinds of Hoklo.

That is what I mean… LOL, starting to think debating over the Internet wasn’t such a good idea…

We should encourage using the specific word for ‘Butcher’, and not just make nouns by adding ‘仒’. And since Mandarin uses the specific word, it gives us the impression that using 屠夫 would be succumbing to linguistic imperialism. The diversity of hanji characters belongs to every dialect, why surrender it away?

What's universal? Not everybody on this forum reads hanji at speed and with ease. Many words in Hoklo don't go with existing hanji. 何麼 for hami̍h? Hardly universally accepted. “Historically,” POJ is probably the most universal writing system Hoklo has ever had. Let's face it, most Hoklophones before the 20th cen. couldn't read hanji. Yet I agree, I don't think POJ is “the answer”. U want to find a universal system of writing for Hoklo? Join the club. This is something we would universally like to see. In the meantime, why not learn POJ? Even (y)our Mandarin-educated brothers on Ispeakmin know it and use it.

Hehe, sorry, my mistake. Of course POJ is universal, who am I kidding? >.< I was talking about the pronunciation for various regions. For example, we pronounce 話 as oa, while – if not mistaken – Taiwanese pronounce it as oe. This is how POJ is inconsistent, hence not universal. It encourages linguistic isolation, even between varieties of Hokkien.

Right back to Ah-bin's post.

As for sharing the same vocabulary, this is an interesting point. I think most Hoklo dialects have become lexical outliers through contact with Japanese, Malay, Mandarin, English, Cantonese. The most “universal” Hoklo would probably be the most “original” Hoklo. Bâgán'oē of Sumatra should definitely be in the running for this. Not to put any pressure on Niuc.

There's also plenty of room for borrowing between dialects, and not just between linguists.

Borrowing between dialects is good, I think, like how Korean borrowed so many terms from Japanese. Ironically, one of the political reason they abandoned Hanji was to deny themselves as being associated with the Japanese – if I am not mistaken. >.<
Nonetheless, like Korean, we need to standardise the borrowing. If Hokkien already has the term, albeit not known, we should promote the original one. And even for borrowing, we should use the Hokkien pronunciation instead of the one from whence the term was borrowed.

As in, actually SPEAK Hokkien?

Okay, maybe 批舘 is a more universal term. But I was talking about more regional vocabularies like 老君 vs 醫生, 沖水間 vs 便所. Speaking Hokkien would just familiarise yourself with one particular version of Hokkien, that is why I suggest a set of universal vocabulary agreed amongst the Hokkien-speaking regions, coexisting with the locally used term.
Of course, that is the ideal. Not sure if it will really happen in real life...

[amhoanna]

For example, we pronounce 話 as oa, while – if not mistaken – Taiwanese pronounce it as oe. This is how POJ is inconsistent, hence not universal. It encourages linguistic isolation, even between varieties of Hokkien.

Good pt! I wouldn't go so far as to say it encourages linguistic isolation, though. I would just say it's an "inelegant solution". Look at how the Vietnamese have dealt with this problem, and how it's turned out. Alternatively, look at the situation with the Romance languages. Personally, I believe a hanji+hangưl type of writing system would be better for Hoklo than POJ. But who's to say they can't all get along?

Speaking Hokkien would just familiarise yourself with one particular version of Hokkien, that is why I suggest a set of universal vocabulary agreed amongst the Hokkien-speaking regions, coexisting with the locally used term.
Of course, that is the ideal. Not sure if it will really happen in real life...

Sure it would be good for everybody to know what everybody else is saying. But that doesn't mean everybody's got to say it the same way. Take the Australian English vs. American Black English example that we've been using. Each side has their own vocabulary, with "domestic" differences too, yet everyone can understand each other. I can definitely enjoy my "phoekoán" w/o depriving U and my countrymen of the pleasures of "iûkio̍k".

[niuc]

I can definitely enjoy my "phoekoán" w/o depriving U and my countrymen of the pleasures of "iûkio̍k".

In Bâ-gán-uē, we call it phue-kuan 批關. Not sure if we got it wrong (from phue-kuán 批館). Personally I really like kuan 關 here, because it means post office is a pass for letters!

If I remember correctly, 郵局 is usually pronounced as iû-kìk, though much rarer used than 批關 in my variant. 警察局 is kìng-chat-kìk, though the usual word for police is chìng-ping 銃兵! Oh yeah, the more common word for police station is chìng-ping-chù.

About "bahasa baku", as Sim has pointed out, yes, it means standard language. It's interesting to notice the nuance of the word "baku" though, as it also means basic e.g. "bahan baku" = basic (may also imply raw) material.

A native Hoklophone makes nouns just by adding an 仒, e.g. 賣肉仒. And in speech, at least in TW and Amoy, this would only be two syllables. This said, there might also be a specific word for BUTCHER in some kinds of Hoklo.

True for my variant. Butcher, if meaning the one who sells meat, is 賣肉仒; if the one who slaughters pigs, is 刣豬仒. 仒 there is with neutral tone.

As for sharing the same vocabulary, this is an interesting point. I think most Hoklo dialects have become lexical outliers through contact with Japanese, Malay, Mandarin, English, Cantonese. The most “universal” Hoklo would probably be the most “original” Hoklo. Bâgán'oē of Sumatra should definitely be in the running for this. Not to put any pressure on Niuc.

Hahaha... nice to hear that but there are quite many influences from Indonesian/Malay or English (e.g. 目頭 for trademark) in Bâgán'oē. There should be many variants in 閩南 villages that are more "original" and not so much influenced by Mandarin, right?

[amhoanna]

Phoekoan -- interesting. My first reaction was to wonder if I maybe mis-heard phoekoan as phoekoán when I was in Melaka, but 批館 turns up a good many results. So I guess the two stand side by side.

Chèngpengchù 銃兵厝 -- Love it!

Hahaha... nice to hear that but there are quite many influences from Indonesian/Malay or English (e.g. 目頭 for trademark) in Bâgán'oē. There should be many variants in 閩南 villages that are more "original" and not so much influenced by Mandarin, right?

Maybe, out in the salt fields or up in the hills. I'd say it's even money. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and the Hoklo is always purer somewhere out there over the tropic seas. I think Bâgán Hokkien is tremendously interesting. It would be a shame for it to go out w/o a dictionary to chronicle it. Maybe it could be worked into a wider (say, ASEAN-wide) dictionary project, maybe even Wiktionary itself.