Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

[Ah-bin]

I haven't been active for a few days, but I would like to thank everyone who has given answers to the questions I asked.

Although these are about Penang Hokkien, please allow me to share the parallel in my variant.

You'll notice that somewhere further up this thread I intentionally put some "Niuc bait" in by mentioning Bagansiapiapi

I always like to hear about what is used there too. It is a pity you arent writing a dictionary of Bagansiapiapi Hokkien, to compare with the Penang one!

I was trying to work out where I had seen those fluted glasses SIm is talking about, as the description seemd very familiar. I remembered it was somewhere where I sat outside in tropical heat. Actually it was Vietnam, in the bia hơi (draught beer) places in Vietnam they often still use exactly that sort of glass.

[Mark Yong]

Hi, Sim,

The fluted glasses still exist in Penang, and can still be seen in some coffee shops. I suspect the only reason why they are not used for barley-peng (or drinks in general) anymore is simply economics - the plastic cups have less volume, and don't break so easily!

Nowadays, the fluted glasses are used to store chilli sauce at the 牛肉粿條 gu-bah-koey-tiau stalls, and they use those colourful plastic glass covers (the ones that our grandparents used to cover their tea mugs)!

While you are probably aware that my stance towards Hokkien and languages in general is more prescriptive rather than descriptive, nonetheless I not only respect your views, I also admit that the descriptive model is, in fact, the reality of things. Perhaps that is the reason why, throughout my 6 years in Penang, I adhered more to the spoken model of the downtown, 'pure' Hokkien speakers, rather than the code-switching model (reference is made to a previous post of mine, where I talked about the different strains within Penang Hokkien today). It would have been so much easier for me as a non-native speaker to settle for the Hokkien-English code-switching model, and still 'conform' to the local dialect as a whole (but I would be classed under the 讀紅毛册 thak ang-mO-chaek speakers). It was my way of disciplining myself to learn the 'ideal' form of the dialect properly (lexicon, grammar and all), but also to send a subtle message to the people I addressed when speaking that contrary to their sub-conscious beliefs and notions, the rich lexicon of Penang Hokkien is far from lost, for here is an out-of-towner who speaks it with some degree of accuracy.

[SimL]

While you are probably aware that my stance towards Hokkien and languages in general is more prescriptive rather than descriptive, nonetheless I not only respect your views, I also admit that the descriptive model is, in fact, the reality of things.

Hi Mark,

Yes, I certainly am aware of your stance, and would like to also stress that I, for my part, totally respect it.

The thing that I really appreciate in you is that you understand the descriptive stance, and are willing to acknowledge that - in some aspects - it's valid. But there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't lean towards the more prescriptive model. And I also think that it's totally great that you wanted to adhere to the "downtown Hokkien" form (even more so as the other option would have been easier for you) - your preferred form exists, it's used by lots of speakers, it enables you to better communicate with Taiwanese and other Hokkien speakers, it's just as valid "Penang Hokkien" as the anglicized equivalent. Not only that, I'm even all for your promoting it at the expense of the anglicized equivalent - why not use "pure Hokkien roots" if they are available, and in common use by other Penang Hokkiens!

What got up my nose was the feeling of contempt for my form of Penang Hokkien, so openly expressed by that group of linguistic prescriptivists (and their lack of understanding of the issues I was trying to express). I don't need people to share my opinion (though of course that too is nice), I just would like them to understand it. I felt that that group (or rather, those individuals - they didn't form a cohesive group) never did. And, in any case, I have never considered you to belong among them! Your initial exposition of the "coffee shop barley peng" issue - what a lovely term you coined - (once again) amply demonstrated your grasp of the issues involved. But I have to admit that I couldn't resist the temptation to use it to sound off at that old group ["my bad"!] .

Just to further support your initial story: my mother made i-bi-cui at home, and we drank it, and that's the only thing we ever called it too, at home. (But we only had it in the fridge, and didn't mix ice into it, so it was only ever called 'i-bi-cui'.) If I recall correctly, it's considered to be "cooling" (in terms of Traditional Chinese Medicine).

[SimL]

For a more detailed analysis of 'red' in Classical Chinese: http://gtotom.pthc.chc.edu.tw/tsengch/0 ... rt2_60.pdf (the Abstract on Page #2 is in English). As you can see, the list for 'red' is much more extensive than the three (3) words listed above. It is interesting to see how specific Classical Chinese was with defining shades of colours. But I digress...

Hi Mark,

I took some time and transcribed the abstract, and post it here (it had to be actually typed word for word, because somehow the PDF wouldn't allow me to select, copy, and paste the text). Indeed, the number of different words for red is amazing, perhaps slightly less so - viewed in the light of the fact that China has a recorded history of 4000 years - but nevertheless impressive.

---

Tzeng, Chi-Shoung*
*Visual Communication Design of Graduate School of National Yunlin University of Science & Technology , Associate professor

Abstract

This research is to analyze how the development of red indication Chinese words reflects its hue through ages based on the technology of etymology and materials science. 赤 (Chi), Zhu (朱) and Dan (丹) were the major Chinese characters to represent red hue in ancient times, and increased by Hong (紅), Zhu (絑), Jiang (絳), Fei (緋), Xun (纁), Cheng (赬), Quan (縓), Ran (繎), Chu (絀), Qian (綪), Jin (縉), Ti (緹), and Yun (縕), up to Qin Dynasty. Hues represented by these words are to do with material cinnabar, red flowers, Raeuschel “Alphonso karri” (蘇枋), Zi-Mao (紫鉚) and Rubiaceae (茜草). It is discovered that the very important red indication word Chi (赤) was gradually replaced by Hong (紅) started from around Hang Dynasty. In Tan Dynasty, the frequency of using Hong (紅) has become greater than the frequency of using Chi (赤) 。 Nowadays, Hong (紅) is the major word to indicate red both in written and spoken languages and Chi (赤), on the other hand, has become an ancient word. This research also found through an survey of word association, that people’s color recognition of Chi (赤) and Hong (紅) are interlinked.

Key words: Hong (紅), Chi (赤), color name, Hang characters (Chinese characters)

---

One of the interesting aspects of the abstract (the underlining - for emphasis - is mine) confirms what I've suspected about modern Chinese speakers (particularly Mandarin speakers, but I notice this of Taiwanese as well). That is, that they often don't distinguish between "-n" and "-ng". Of course, in the official version of Mandarin, these two sounds are distinguished, but (to my surprise), many Mandarin speakers don't distinguish them when speaking English (as illustrated in the quoted abstract). It amazes me even more when I hear Taiwanese doing this (when speaking English), because Hokkien most certainly distinguishes "-n" and "-ng" (and even "-m").

[SimL]

...2. In a less-polite context, I have been known to say 屎色 sai-sek!

Well, when I was young, there was the colour "a(h)-sai-sek".

It was a sort of beige+light-brown+green (mixed, as in paint, into one uniform colour). Perhaps one had to have been around ducks a bit, to know the exact shade!

There was also "ke-leng-a-sek", which wasn't so much a specific colour as a combination of colours; from memory: (some or all of) purple, light-red, greenish-blue. (In contrast to "a(h)-sai-sek", this one was separate but distinct colours, interwoven or running parallel or crosswise to one another - not mixed into a mash, like paints). It was used as a term of disapproval: "cit tiau saN cin-nia ho cheng, ko(h) be la-sam, tapi ai-o, cin-nia ke-leng-a-sek!" (= "this shirt is very comfortable to wear, and doesn't get dirty easily, but, oh dear - the colours are so 'Indian'!"). [As usual, I post this with the qualification that I intend no racial offence (I love Indian fabrics, and have some at home) - I'm just describing language usage as I knew it in my youth.]

[SimL]

Just to further support your initial story: my mother made i-bi-cui at home, and we drank it, and that's the only thing we ever called it too, at home. (But we only had it in the fridge, and didn't mix ice into it, so it was only ever called 'i-bi-cui'.) If I recall correctly, it's considered to be "cooling" (in terms of Traditional Chinese Medicine).

Further to this, I did a bit of investigation on the net. I have always thought that "i-bi" was "barley" - as indeed does everybody else too, I imagine, given the fact that "barley peng" and "i-bi-cui" are the same thing. But, this is what I found on the net...

1. I used the etymology page to look up 米: http://www.internationalscientific.org/ ... =%E7%B1%B3.
2. I used the linked "Taiwanese (臺灣話): Analyze" to get the Hokkien compounds containing "bi2".
3. Looking down the alphabetically sorted list, I found "i-bi", indeed with the characters you gave: 薏米.
4. I saw the Mandarin equivalent: 薏苡.
5. I looked up 薏苡 on yahoo dictionary: http://hk.dictionary.yahoo.com/dictiona ... F%E8%8B%A1.
6. (To my surprise) I got "Job's tears" (instead of "barley").
7. I looked up "Job's tears" on English Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job%27s_tears.
8. I checked the equivalent article on Chinese Wikipedia: http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%96%8F%E8%8B%A1
9. And, indeed, on the Chinese Wikipedia page, we see a photograph of the familiar "i-bi-cui" and "barley peng".

This is what English Wikipedia has to say about "Job's tears" (underlining = my emphasis):

Job's Tears (Coix lacryma-jobi), Coixseed, Tear Grass, adlay, or adlai, is a tall grain-bearing tropical plant of the family Poaceae (grass family) native to East Asia and peninsular Malaysia but elsewhere cultivated in gardens as an annual. It has been naturalized in the southern United States and the New World tropics. In its native environment it is grown in higher areas where rice and corn do not grow well. Vyjanti beads is also commonly, but misleadingly, sold as Chinese pearl barley in Asian supermarkets, despite the fact that C. lacryma-jobi are not of the same genus as barley (Hordeum vulgare).

(The English article goes on to describe the fact that it's used as a drink by the Chinese.)

Like I keep saying: what can't one find on Wikipedia these days!

PS. The photographs in the English Wikipedia article on barley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley) show that "Job's tears" even actually looks quite different from "barley"...

[Ah-bin]

This is going to end up one of the longest threads on this forum, I think!

4. I saw the Mandarin equivalent: 薏苡.

Ah, I have seen this before and I had no idea what "Job's tears" were. I think it was originally a foreign word, I seem to remember the first time it is mentioned is in the book of the later Han in relation to Ma Yuan's military campaign in the Red River Plain.

I am very impressed with the large number of colours that can be expressed in Hokkien. I know exactly what ah-sái-sek 鴨屎色 means, and I could imagine straight away what the "Indian colours" are - those beautiful turquoises and crimsons that one often sees in saris.

This round of questions is specifically Penang or Malaysia related. I don't think that there are many high rollers on this forum, so I am not sure whether anyone will know about these names of betting games in Tan Choon Hoe's "Penang Hokkien Dialect". Here is the list, Mr. Tan's explanations, and my guesses at the characters and POJ:

Magnum (4 digit) bun leng (My guess is Bān-lêng 萬靈)

Big Sweep phao beh (my guess Phau-bé• 跑馬)

Pan-Malaysian Sweeps’ Lottery (my guess Bé•-phio 馬票)

To lay a stake/place a bet:

Bé-jī 買字
Bé-kiáu 買九
Te•h-jī 壓字
Te•h-kiáu 壓九

Are these accurate? It is interesting that the names mean things like "horse ticket" and "horse racing", as if they are extensions of meaning from these. I'd like to enter some of these words in the dictionary. If they are important enough for the PHD book, then are are certainly important enough for the dictionary!

Please excuse 壓 for te•h. I haven't found a good character yet.

A while ago i asked about the Hokkien word for the hard burnt crust of rice on the bottom of the pot (鍋巴 in Mandarin).

In my Mandarin to Taiwanese dictionary I found pūiⁿ-phí 飯疕 does this ring any bells for anyone?

Thank you everyone for your contributions!

[Mark Yong]

A quick reply in between work.

bān-lêng (Magnum) would be 萬能. The "10,000 possibilities" it refers to are the 4-digit numbers between 0000 and 9999.

Vaguely recall aokh1979 writing a thread about tæh before, but will put forward my points.

On the basis of:
1. The mapping between the initials zh-(國), c-(粵) and t-(閩)
2. The close proximity of definition
I postulated that tæh in Minnan and ca in Yue were both 搾 - to squeeze in Yue, and to squeeze/press in Minnan.

However, I believe aokh1979 debunked that one, because apparently they are two separate and differently-pronounced words - one nasalised and one not:
1. tæh is to press
2. tæⁿ 搾 is to squeeze

That being the case, I have to concur with Ah-bin's provisional loan character 壓 (the dictionary 閩南話漳腔辭典 also uses it, though I admit that it is hardly a good reference for accurate 本字), though it does have its own Minnan reading of at. Which then brings me to another point: "High-blood pressure" in Hokkien is really 血壓【高】 huit-at-koan, but nowadays is contracted to just 血【高】 huit koan - resulting in a loss of one application of the reading at for 壓.

[SimL]

A while ago i asked about the Hokkien word for the hard burnt crust of rice on the bottom of the pot (鍋巴 in Mandarin).

In my Mandarin to Taiwanese dictionary I found pūiⁿ-phí 飯疕 does this ring any bells for anyone?

Yes, in the "Hokkien words in Thai" topic (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922), at the bottom of page 7, I say:

"The term "puiN7-phi2" (= "rice-scab") comes vaguely to mind, but perhaps the others can confirm or refute this."

On page 8, at the top, niuc collaborates with a slight variation:

"Ah-bin, in my variant we call it 'chau3-ta1-phi2' or 'chau3-ta1-png7'. 'phi2' is crust, used also for crusts on skin."

So, with a sum of 3 (including your Mandarin to Taiwanese dictionary), I think this one can be accepted as confirmed.

[Ah-bin]

Strange, I don't know why I missed the answers from before when it was me who asked about it! Thanks for pointing it out.

Niuc's word was also given in my Taiwanese Dictionary.

I don't think I'll be so keen to eat it now that I know it is "rice scab" eeeew!