Teochew 2554/2011

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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amhoanna
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Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Teochew 2554/2011

Post by amhoanna »

As promised, some notes on my trip to Teochew. I was in 揭阳 Kiat'iông at goá ê pêng'iú in tau. They live in a beautiful old-style house with an open-air section, carvings in the ceiling, and calligraphy at every turn. I couldn't understand more than 20% of what was being said. After "hi-fi dialogs" with Teochews in Bangkok and elsewhere, I was expecting to be able to understand a lot more. I don't know but this could have something to do with dialect differences w/i Teochew. Also, the whole family often drew a blank when I spoke Banlamese. I tried to bridge the gap by speaking "Teokien" as much as I was able, but usually it was way easier just to say it in Cantonese. I also tried to buy durian at the market speaking Teokien. The seller just laughed and said Let's speak Mandarin. The sisters got a good laugh out of that. Still, I mostly did my best to follow the conversation in Teochew, and usually I could at least make out the topic.

Now since I'd always mostly spoke to my friend in Cantonese, this naturally carried over to my interactions with her family. Her sisters were fluent in Cantonese, like her, mostly from watching TV. Her father had spent time in Tangkoáⁿ 東莞 and probably spoke the best Cantonese in the family. Her mother and baby brother were kind of in the 識听唔識講 category, but sometimes they would bust out in Cantonese too. The brother is definitely making progress in Cantonese -- he's about 13, and learning Cantonese is I guess a rite of passage into adulthood for "kids these days" in Teochew. The mother and brother were the two members of the family that tried to use Mandarin with me. For some reason, though, the family came under the impression early on that I didn't speak or understand Mandarin. They knew I was from Taiwan, but it made perfect sense to them for a Taiwanese guy not to speak any Mandarin. :lol: Neighbors and kin came over from time to time to phàutê and I could hear them telling them in Teochew that I didn't speak Teochew or Mandarin.

Toward the end of my stay, I fielded a phone call in fluent Mandarin. From then on the mother started talking to me in Mandarin again. I would respond in Canto. The brother more or less talked to me in Mandarin the whole time. I guess it was hard for him to grasp the idea of anybody not being able to speak Mandarin. I talked to him mostly in Canto as well. The father and sisters just talked to me in Canto the whole time.

More on language attitudes. The kids streamed a lot of Hong Kong TV on www.qiyi.com. Qiyi being a pan-China site, a lot of the videos on there are dubbed in Mandarin -- the stiff, fake kind of dubbing that U always get in Chinese countries and Vietnam. Now whenever they clicked into one of these dubbed videos, the sisters would click BACK in disgust and go back to the menu to look for the undubbed Cantonese version.

The family stayed in a part of Kiat'iông called Châkiô 槎桥. Despite the arcane character 槎, châ is actually just the everyday word for WOOD. I usually see it written as 柴 in the Banlamese context. It seems that Banlamese and Teochew have totally different systems of 俗字 sio̍kjī.

At the bus station in Soaⁿthâu (not Soàⁿthâu) = SWATOW, I noticed that all announcements were made in Teochew first, and then Mandarin.

One last observation. Teochew families have a lot of kids. They were having four or five kids all through the '80s and '90s. It's no mistake that Kúiⁿciu and Chimcùn are "overrun" by young Teochews -- there's just so many of them. So the number of Teochew speakers in Tn̂gsoaⁿ is probably a lot higher than what it was "the last time somebody checked."
SimL
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Re: Teochew 2554/2011

Post by SimL »

Hi amhoanna,

As in the past, thanks very much for taking the trouble to share your experiences. It's great reading about all this. Only, it makes me slightly sad that the Teochews are doing so well with their language (pride, ability to speak it), whereas the Hokkiens in Amoy, Singapore and the Taiwanese aren't. Perhaps if one goes to more remote parts of south eastern Fujian province (i.e. not Amoy), one might find something similar...

Have a good weekend!
Ah-bin
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Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Teochew 2554/2011

Post by Ah-bin »

Not to worry SIm, Hokkien in Amoy might be in a moribund state, but it may be doing a lot better in Chiang-chiu and Choan-chiu. I'm sure there are parts of the Teochew area where Teochew is a foreign language as well, since they have had so much migration from the north. I only spent an afternoon in Chiang-chiu, and have never been to Choan-chiu, so I can't really say.

Now that question of vernacular characters being different is very interesting indeed. I've seen a few different ways of writing related words in different types of Southern Min but 乜 for 物 (mih) is the only one I can think of at the moment.

Teochew always seemed to me at first like a bit of a mixture of Cantonese and Hokkien, they have a few words like 睇 啱 and 好 for chin/chin-chiaN that I associate with Cantonese. The more I look, the less I am inclined to think like that though.
amhoanna
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Re: Teochew 2554/2011

Post by amhoanna »

One thing I forgot to mention. One day my friend's father asked me how to say Châkiô in English. Now this guy is a blue-collar businessman and not really interested in language in general. First I thought maybe he wanted a translation-by-meaning, so I said it would be "Woodbridge", and I told him there's a Woodbridge on the far outskirts of New York City. But he cut me off kind of impatiently and asked again, "我係話,英文点講槎桥?" Eventually I figured out what he was asking. I told him it could be "tsa-gyo" based on Teochew, "cha-chow" based on Mandarin, or "tsa-kyoo" based on Cantonese.

There's kind of this "general layman's wisdom" that Teochew is a mixture or transition between Cantonese and Banlamese, that Vietnamese springs from Cantonese, etc., and the guys that spew this wisdom at banquets are always unshakably convinced. :mrgreen: Naw, I don't think there's much Cantonese in Teochew. 睇 is an interesting word, though. Maybe VNese thấy is also 睇?

Teochew isn't doing THAT well either. If anything, I think what I saw illustrates how young Teochews are taking on Cantonese-speaking identities, identifying with Cantonese over Mandarin, etc. In fact a few yrs ago a friend of mine asked my Teochew friend, in Mandarin, what was her preferred language? She seemed confused by the question, but answered, "Cantonese." ... Another 25-ish Teochew acquaintance in Canton, a graduate student of language education and sometime Mandarin tutor, flat-out told me she doesn't like to speak Teochew. She finds it uncouth, unrefined, unseemly, what have U. Yet I was able to switch her from Mandarin to Cantonese even though she didn't really speak Canto fluently. Afterwards she made every effort to say everything in Cantonese, almost never resorting to Mandarin to get a pt across. I have no doubt the same would be true of people in Amoy if Bânlâm would've somehow been mapped into the People's Autonomous Linguistic Province of Kwongtung. 8)
AndrewAndrew
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Re: Teochew 2554/2011

Post by AndrewAndrew »

amhoanna wrote:There's kind of this "general layman's wisdom" that Teochew is a mixture or transition between Cantonese and Banlamese, that Vietnamese springs from Cantonese, etc., and the guys that spew this wisdom at banquets are always unshakably convinced. :mrgreen: Naw, I don't think there's much Cantonese in Teochew. 睇 is an interesting word, though. Maybe VNese thấy is also 睇?
From the little Teochew that I have heard, I thought it was in between Hokkien and Hakka, e.g. mi-kai / ma-kai for what? and kai / ke for the possessive/general classifier. The sound is much more Hakka than Cantonese.

Then again I always think Hakka is in between Mandarin and Cantonese.
Ah-bin
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Re: Teochew 2554/2011

Post by Ah-bin »

Then again I always think Hakka is in between Mandarin and Cantonese.
and I quite agree, sometimes Hakka has very Mandarin-type words like tung-si 東西 where all of the other languages have 嘢 物 etc. Some types even distinguish sh/s and ch/ts.

I've actually been wondering about Hakka again recently in the last weeks. The type of Hakka I learnt in Taiwan was known as Si-yen 四縣 Hakka, and was said to be close to the Hakka spoken in Moi-yen 梅縣 in Kwangtung. When I actually heard Moi-yen Hakka, it was very different in tones and vocabulary. I am constantly surprised at the variety within Hakka, but perhaps it is about the same as the variety in Amoy/Chiang/Choan/Tai/Southeast Asian Hokkien, and I just don't know enough Hakka!
niuc
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Re: Teochew 2554/2011

Post by niuc »

Thanks, Amhoanna for sharing your interesting experiences! :mrgreen:

Although it's kind of sad that many Teochew people are switching to Cantonese, but I guess it's sort of "expected", given the influence of Hong Kong. It's great that bus station in Swatow has announcement in Teochew, even before Mandarin. Is there any in Bânlâm area? (I guess not in Amoy?)

I always had this impression that Teochew, though quite different, borrowed some words like 睇 from Cantonese. For Hakka, my impression was that it kind of had Cantonese consonants and Mandarin vowels.

Frankly speaking, may be due to successful Mandarin "campaign" (not in Singapore, but much before), my personal thinking have been, if let say Hokkiens are to give up speaking Hokkien, somehow I prefer them to speak Mandarin (or even English) rather than Cantonese or Hakka or other Chinese language. Don't be angry with me for thinking like this, actually I am not sure why I prefer that way. :roll:
amhoanna
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Re: Teochew 2554/2011

Post by amhoanna »

Frankly speaking, may be due to successful Mandarin "campaign" (not in Singapore, but much before), my personal thinking have been, if let say Hokkiens are to give up speaking Hokkien, somehow I prefer them to speak Mandarin (or even English) rather than Cantonese or Hakka or other Chinese language. Don't be angry with me for thinking like this, actually I am not sure why I prefer that way. :roll:
Spoken like a true Hokkien. :)

I don't speak the languages of three of my four grandparents, but somehow I prefer speaking Hoklo and Cantonese over Mandarin and English. :mrgreen:
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