Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

[SimL]

w/ the caveat that this set-up can only be used for small numbers of a thing, class, etc. "Slovenly" ce/he might not come w/ this restriction...

Oh, right. Very well spotted! "Slovenly" ce/he has this restriction as well, probably because the restriction is caused by the "kui", which per se means "a (motley) few".

One couldn't say "he kui-e lang ti tng-suaN" or "he kui-e lang ti in-tO", for example .

So, we're left with a problem of what to do for "these/those", when it involves a large number...

[Ah-bin]

In this case Penang Hokkien I am guessing one could perhaps just add a "kà-liáu" somewhere to show plurality without being restricted in number.

Há-lê lâng tī Tng-soaⁿ kà-liáu.... "those people in China are.."

Maybe this isn't necessary though, and there are ways of finding out which is singular and which plural from the context.

[amhoanna]

我是從菲國長大後移民到雪梨，但我大部分的時間都在南方的一個小市，因此就回說不是馬尼拉人。

明白！你來自棉蘭佬嗎？來自哪一个城市？

So, we're left with a problem of what to do for "these/those", when it involves a large number..

Well, Sim, I'm not sure if your ce/he plural usage is kosher in TW to begin with. It does fit my gứkám 語感. Suppose someone said, "Ah ce Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng--ho͘ⁿ..." / "Ah ce aTiong--ho͘ⁿ"... Couldn't that refer to either a lone Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng or a multitude, or Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng in general?

[SimL]

Suppose someone said, "Ah ce Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng--ho͘ⁿ..." / "Ah ce aTiong--ho͘ⁿ"... Couldn't that refer to either a lone Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng or a multitude, or Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng in general?

I think you've got it. This seems to convey a plural (from context).

[niuc]

Apparently, we have that too. A lot, but we consciously know that they are two syllables though. Is that same there?

Yeleixingfeng, I pronounce them as one syllable and do not consciously think whether I know that they are contractions of two syllables or not.

Niuc, I've yet to come across any kind of Hoklo that didn't like contractions. Besides "toài" 倒來, which I'm not sure about, all the other contractions U mentioned are used in TW. Unstressed "--loai" is probably heard five or ten times more often than unstressed "--lo̍hlâi". Give a man a quid of betel and watch his Hoklo turn into just one big contraction.

Amhoanna, glad to know that! In my variant, the contractions often are the "natural ones", in that saying e.g. tò_laï sounds un-Bagan, feels like a pronunciation on some TW TV drama (although it's actually 轉來 in TW). Real life TW uses more contractions or original pronunciations?

[siamiwako]

明白！你來自棉蘭佬嗎？來自哪一个城市？

三寶顏市

[amhoanna]

Niuc, real life TWese Hoklo is heavily elided. It's almost a language that has to be learned sentence by sentence. I could almost swear that "tńg--lâi" TO RETURN turns into "táiⁿ", and mid-sentence "tńglâi" turns into "t[schwá]ⁿ'āiⁿ". And unlike in Coânciu, Klang, Penang, etc., glottal stops are "deleted" except in citation. Also, TWese Hoklo uses a narrower pitch range. I've always wondered if contact with Formosan people and languages had an effect on Hoklo in TW.

Telenovela Hoklo actually sounds stilted to me too. The telenovelas are all overacted. I think they're getting worse now as the last generation of genuine Hoklo-speaking young urban TWese fades into the sunset.

三寶顏市

Ooh... Very interesting part of the world. 有沒有到過蘇祿島嶼, Jolo, etc.?

[siamiwako]

Ooh... Very interesting part of the world. 有沒有到過蘇祿島嶼, Jolo, etc.?

Never dared to travel anywhere near there considering it's geographically close.

[niuc]

Niuc, real life TWese Hoklo is heavily elided. It's almost a language that has to be learned sentence by sentence. I could almost swear that "tńg--lâi" TO RETURN turns into "táiⁿ", and mid-sentence "tńglâi" turns into "t[schwá]ⁿ'āiⁿ". And unlike in Coânciu, Klang, Penang, etc., glottal stops are "deleted" except in citation. Also, TWese Hoklo uses a narrower pitch range. I've always wondered if contact with Formosan people and languages had an effect on Hoklo in TW.

Thank you, Amhoanna! So real life TW Hoklo is quite different! My mom & I were on package tour to Taiwan few years back, but unfortunately we didn't have much opportunity to speak to locals (as most of the time spent on the bus!). Next time when I meet you (Kapan Langit akan mampir di Kota Singa? ) or Sim or others, I have to ask you guys to show me the glottal stops, as my T2 & T4 sounds exactly the same in citation. Baganese also sounds low-pitched with narrower pitch range too.

[amhoanna]

Tak tahu kapan akan dapat pergi ke Si̍tla̍tpho Yeah, real life TW Hoklo is elided. I just tend to write everything out in full, b/c ... once U start, where do U stop? But U know how TW Hoklo sounds! Not sure about Sg, but I recall at least some speakers in Pasang (Klang) and Labuan (and Cio̍hsai) having clear, strong glottal stops, even mid-sentence. I'll go hunting on Youtube when I get out from behind this Great Firewall.