Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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Mark Yong
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by Mark Yong »

amhoanna wrote:
I think "real-life" Hoklo and Cantonese are pretty lean on the homophones, maybe even leaner than English. In other words, w/o having given it much thought, I'm questioning your statement that homonyms are a characteristic of Hoklo, among other languages.
If it is common everyday subjects where the breadth of vocabulary employed is relatively limited (e.g. food, the weather, your health), then yes, I will readily agree with you that homonyms in Romanised Hoklo is not so much of a problem (though, I still find that I read slower, as Ah-bin pointed out, I need to liam the words beneath my breath to figure out the texts!).

But once you start going into more complicated texts where you start venturing outside of everyday conversational vocabulary - and again, I cite the Peh-Oe-Ji Bible as an example, then it gets complicated. E.g. if you know that the text you are reading is from the Bible, and you see the words te-gek, you would intuitively know that it is 地獄 Hell. But if a single sentence with the word Hell was extracted and presented in isolation to the reader without the benefit of the full context, I am sure he/she would be scratching his head wondering which te and which gek it is, even if the tone marks were included - one does not normally speak/read of Hell in regular conversations, so that would probably be the last thing on his/her mind! :twisted:

Speaking of Hell, that also begs another problem - Depending on the reader's sub-dialectal background, it could be te-gek or te-giok. And then we end up in one of our old Forum friends' favourite topics on how all variants of Minnan should be scrapped in favour of the Amoy variant as standard.

Of course, one would then argue that the Hokkien used in Peh-Oe-Ji Bibles falls in a different and more complex category from normal conversational Hokkien that is Romanised on paper/screen (and one could say that at that point, the lines start to blurr between collouquial spoken Hokkien, Bible vernacular Hokkien and the Literary Chinese language as a whole). That would open up a whole new set of questions along the lines of "so, what level of complexity in Hokkien can feasibly be Romanised, and what cannot?"

The point I am trying to make is that, if whatever system of writing Hokkien chosen is not efficient enough to venture beyond basic topics such as food, the weather and everybody's health (and I would hope that Hokkien as a living language is capable of much more than that!) without ambuguity, then the said writing system does not complement the spoken language very well. Again, to be fair, Hangeul in Korea and Quoc Ngu in Vietnam are notable success stories, so if a well-developed Peh-Oe-Ji system can take up the role for Hokkien (and its main variants, please!), then sure, that would be a good thing for the dialect (even if I, for one, would certainly weep for the resultant severance of its Sinitic roots).

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I realise that I am bordering on creating and battling my own straw-men in favour of Chinese characters as the preferred method for writing Hokkien while subtly lampooning Romanised Hokkien, so I think I will stop here for now. :lol:
Last edited by Mark Yong on Sat May 28, 2011 5:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by Mark Yong »

amhoanna wrote:
Last, I also have to question cai = 知. Could it be 悉 instead? Could it be non-Sino? Or maybe cai and 知 could be fuzzy cognates, like how a lot of VNese and Siamese words echo Chinese, but don't hold up as cognates under analysis.
While the definition fits, is problematic on the basis of the historical pronunciation, which has a -t ending.
《廣韻》《集韻》《韻會》《正韻》𠀤息七切,音膝。
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by amhoanna »

Hi, Mark. Agreed that written Hoklo needs to be efficient enough to venture beyond basic topics. I think the problem U mentioned exists (with the tēge̍k example). Seems to me, though, that the problem is not homophones, but rather the fact that at this point most Hoklo speakers will switch whole sentences or dialogs to Mandarin, English, Japanese, etc., to avoid using words like tēge̍k. And that breeds unfamiliarity. That said, I feel much the same way as U about Romanized Hoklo. Writing Hoklo with a Tai-Burmese-type Indic script -- now, that'd be a whole different ballgame. :mrgreen:
niuc
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Location: Singapore

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by niuc »

I enjoy reading all the postings here: great discussions! 8)

Does it mean that sâng/siâng comes from 同 also? In my variant sâng/siâng means same/similar, while tâng/tông 同 means together. Although generally our sâng is equivalent to TW kâng, but if I remember correctly, there is a TW phrase kâng-cò-hué meaning together as a group [Please correct me if I am wrong!], if replaced by sâng -> sâng-cò-hué, sounds wrong to me, but tâng-cò-hué 同做伙 sounds correct. Actually I never heard cò-hué in Bâ-gán-uē, we just say cuè-cìt-ē. 親像 chin-chiūⁿ in my variant means same as / like / similar to. It sounds more refined (幼秀) and poetic, though interchangable with sâng-kah, but not with sio-sâng.

It seems that many "siang" often becomes "sang" in my variant, including 雙! Apparently this is Cuanciu's characteristic. (當代泉州音字彙)

地獄 is tē-gìk & tē-gàk in my variant (some also pronounce tuē-); so far I have never heard tē-giòk. Interestingly 監獄 is always kaⁿ-gàk (not -gìk) in my variant and also in 台文-華文線頂辭典.
Mark Yong
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by Mark Yong »

niuc wrote:
It seems that many "siang" often becomes "sang" in my variant, including 雙!
Now, this is interesting. During my high school years in Singapore, me and my friends would regularly order kopi-peng from the coffee shop downstairs of the flat I was renting. I would tell the lady at the counter, "kopi-peng liang3 bei1 兩杯" in Mandarin (I was not conversant in Hokkien back then). She would shout to her staff at the back in a booming voice, "kopi phau53 tai22 sOng24!". I am quite sure the sOng24 is , because I noticed that she would use it whenever I ordered any drink of quantity two (2).

Which then leads me to the next question: What are the Chinese characters for "phau53 tai22"? I am quite sure it means 'ice', because the lady also used it in "tE phau53 tai22!" when I ordered ice tea. And sometimes when I ordered iced tea from an old man from the same shop, he would say "tai22 lung44 phau53 tai22".
niuc
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by niuc »

Mark, that's Hainanese, right? I don't understand either, and only know that Singaporeans say "siu-tai" after kopi/teh for less sugar. I guess that "tai" is sugar and may be phau53 (I only heard of "peng") is ice, may be 雹... ??
Mark Yong
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by Mark Yong »

niuc wrote:
Mark, that's Hainanese, right?
Over to aokh1979 for comment on this one! :P
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by amhoanna »

refined (幼秀)
Khioh! :mrgreen:
kâng-cò-hué
I haven't heard this one. Ká'n̂g còhoé = kah lâng còhoé. 同 is pretty inactive in TW Hoklo except in pan-Sino vocab like 認同, etc. There's 同齐 tângcê. Also once a shop owner said to his wife, "Hâⁿ? I sī gún tông--ê o͘?" ... when he misheard his wife and thought she'd just told him my name and that I had the same last name as him...
niuc
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by niuc »

amhoanna wrote: I haven't heard this one. Ká'n̂g còhoé = kah lâng còhoé.
Oh, so I got it wrong. Thanks for correcting me. :mrgreen:
同 is pretty inactive in TW Hoklo except in pan-Sino vocab like 認同, etc. There's 同齐 tângcê.
認同 is rare but I haven't heard of 同齐. The common word is tâng-sāi 同姒 i.e. 妯娌 in Mandarin. In the Bible, the common word is tâng/tông-cāi 同在.
Also once a shop owner said to his wife, "Hâⁿ? I sī gún tông--ê o͘?" ... when he misheard his wife and thought she'd just told him my name and that I had the same last name as him...
This remind me of those having same given name or nickname, in Bagan it's called giô_ë, seldom heard but sounds unique!
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by amhoanna »

No, Niuc, I don't have the same grasp of Hoklo that U do, period. If we sat down to watch a TWese program, U'd still understand more than me! And I'm still learning as we go along. Liù, for example. Or giànthâu. It's possible that what U heard wasn't "ká'n̂g còhoé"...

Tângcê has a similar meaning to còhoé, tàutīn, and coètīn, but in English terms it would be an adverb, e.g. "Lán ta̍kgê tângcê phahpiàⁿ, símmih kangthêng lóng cò-ē-iâⁿ."
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