Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Locked
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by SimL »

Mark Yong wrote:Quite frankly, I am really amazed how the Koreans manage it so well with Hangeul, as well-evidenced in their world-class literacy rates. My favourite example (taken from the Wikipedia article on Hanja) is sudo 수도:

修道 — spiritual discipline
受渡 — receipt and delivery
囚徒 — prisoner
水都 — 'city of water' (e.g. Venice or Hong Kong)
水稻 — rice
水道 — drain
隧道 — tunnel
水道 — rivers, path of surface water
首都 — capital (city)
手刀 — hand-knife
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the very interesting list for "sudo" in Korean. As soon as I saw it, I remembered a similar list for Japanese, from one of my favourite books: "Writing Systems" by Geoffrey Sampson (Hutchinson, 1985/87; ISBN 0 09 173051 1). I had forgotten that he also compares the situation in Japanese to the one in Korean, until I started reading it again, when re-typing this extract for the Forum. It would appear that he considers the situation in Japanese even "worse" than that in Korean.

This extract - concerning "homonyms in Japanese" - is from Chapter 9, p178-179 of the book cited above. I've taken the liberty of changing his renditions of the Mandarin pronunciation from IPA to pinyin, as I think that that's easier for the readers of this Forum.

<extract>

It is true that Middle Chinese had more phonological distinctions than modern Mandarin Chinese, and there are a handful of contrasts which are lost in modern Chinese but have been preserved in Sino-Japanese. But such cases are few, whereas there are very many distinctions that are preserved in Chinese but absent in Sino-Japanese. Remember that Chinese is already a language in which a large number of morphemes are shared out between a relatively small number of distinct phonological syllables. When the effect of Japanizing the pronunciation is added, the result is a truly colossal degree of homophony in the Sino-Japanese vocabulary. This is why I suggested earlier that purely phonographic script, though feasible for Koreans, is not feasible for Japanese: Sino-Korean phonology maintains many of the contrasts lost in modern Chinese, but Sino-Japanese has even fewer contrast than Chinese.

To illustrate, I give a sample of the different Chinese morphemes which all exist in the (modern, living) Japanese language with the Sino-Japanese pronunciation /kan/. As can be seen, each morpheme in the list has a distinct pronunciation even in the phonologically-impoverished modern Mandarin version of Chinese; each of the morphemes listed naturally has several Chinese homophones, most of which also exist in Japanese as /kan/, and this list by no means exhausts the range of phonologically-distinct Chinese syllables corresponding to Sino-Japanese /kan/.

甘 gan1 'sweet'
感 gan3 'be affected'
刊 kan1 'print'
慣 guan4 'be accustomed to'
觀 guan1 'view'
勘 kan4 'investigate'
緩 huan3 'slow'
管 guan3 'tube'
鐶 huan2 'a ring'
歡 huan1 'enjoy'
卷 juan4 'a volume'
韓 han2 'Korean'
漢 han4 'Chinese'
etc, etc

all pronounced in Japanese 'kan'.

With Chinese, although there are very many homophones among morphemes taken singly, two-morpheme compounds are usually unambiguous: if a vocabulary-item consists of a pair of syllables XY it tends to be the case that only one of the various morphemes pronounced X and one of the morphemes pronounced Y fit together as a recognized compound. With the massive level of homophony found in Sino-Japanese, however, even this is far from true. To give just one example: the disyllabic /kankō/ is ambiguous as between all of the following Sino-Japanese compound words (among others); again I give the Chinese pronunciation for comparison:

甘汞 gan1 gong3 'mercurous chloride'
感光 gan3 guang1 'expose (photographically)'
刊行 kan1 xing2 'publication'
慣行 guan4 xing2 'habitual'
觀光 guan1 guang1 'sightseeing'
勘考 kan4 kao3 'consider'
緩行 huan3 xing2 'run slow'
etc

all pronounced in Japanese 'kankō'.

If the Chinese language had developed this degree of homophony in the course of its evolution, no doubt it would have taken measures of one sort or another to solve the problem (as indeed did happen when monomorphemic words in classical Chinese were replaced by compounds in the modern spoken language). But Japanese is, as it were, at the mercy of Chinese - from the point of view of Japanese society, Chinese is the authoritative source both of non-native morphemes and, to a large extent, of the approved ways of compounding them. If the result of adapting this stock of roots to Japanese habits of pronunciation is a vocabulary which is extremely ambiguous in its spoken form, that is just bad luck for the Japanese. There are isolated parallels in English: it is unfortunate for us that the Romans used words for 'mouth' and 'ear', ōris and auris, which (while sounding quite different in Latin) fall together in the confusing pair of English homophones oral and aural. Life would be more convenient for us if we decided to use, say, gaur- rather than aur- as the root for 'ear' in technical vocabulary; but we feel that Latin is a fixed given, so we cannot do this and must tolerate the unfortunate consequences of using the genuine roots. For the Japanese this situation is multiplied thousands of times over. This implies, among other things, that the logographic nature of Chinese writing is even more important for the Japanese than for the Chinese.

</extract>


Notes:


1. Please note that I know absolutely no Japanese, so I'm purely quoting what the author says, though what he says makes a lot of sense to me.


2. The author doesn't stress something which I think is worth pointing out (perhaps he thinks it's too obvious to need pointing out!), namely that in the process which he called "Japanizing" (of Chinese pronunciation, to fit Japanese morphology), not only is there a loss of distinction because there are fewer distinct consonants and vowels in Japanese than in Chinese, but just the fact alone of the absence of tone in Japanese means that (what are now still) 4 distinct syllables in Modern Mandarin would merge into one syllable in Japanese.


3. While I agree with most of what he says above, it isn't the case that two-syllable words in Mandarin Chinese are almost completely unambiguous. Even in my very limited vocabulary I already know of three pairs:

- bi4 xu1: 必須 "must, have to" / 必需, "need to, require, essential, indispensible".
- deng1 ji1: 登機 "to board a plane" / 登基 "to ascend the throne".
- xie1 zi0: 楔子 "wedge" / 蠍子 "scorpion".

But this level of homophony is probably no worse than any other language, and can easily be disambiguated by context in speech (in writing, there is of course no problem - this being the one aspect of the Chinese writing system which it excels in). In any case, he does say 'usually unambiguous' and 'tends to be [distinct]' anyway.


4. The author says (my emphasis):

"But Japanese is, as it were, at the mercy of Chinese - from the point of view of Japanese society, Chinese is the authoritative source both of non-native morphemes and, to a large extent, of the approved ways of compounding them."

For most of the long history of Japan, this was undoubtedly the case, but I question if it's a valid assertion in the period from the late 19th to early 20th century (and certainly not nowadays, where English probably has a far stronger influence). As the modernization of Japan took place earlier and at a faster rate than that of China in that crucial period, it was Japanese - as has been discussed here in the Forum too - which served as the model for Chinese, in coining new words for the modern age; albeit in a way which - because of the previous long history the other way around - was entirely in the spirit of (and indeed, indistinguishable from the methods used in) the Chinese language.

Again, this is no way detracts from the validity of the basic point (the problem of "too many homonyms" in Japanese) as all this occurred way before the late 19th century, but for the reason I give, I would have preferred "was" instead of "is" in the sentence above.
Yeleixingfeng
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

Korean has less homonyms because they have a better alphabet system that salvages more characteristics of Middle Chinese. Nonetheless, ng- and (no-initial) merged to O - in official Korean at least; I am not sure about the dialects - hence 我 and 阿 merged, quite like Hokkien. Besides, -t - became -l. Hence 殺 is sal, 日 is il, 密 is mal etc - not that -t does not exist in their script, which distinguishes it from the -ng/(no-initial) case.

As for Japanese, believe me: If you think Japanese is unfortunate, then Hokkien is tragic. T_T
The cited examples are, I suppose, too literal.
With my limited knowledge with Japanese, I can already name a few variants more commonly used both written and verbal:
緩行:ゆっくり進む(yukkurisusumu) 車が道の真ん中で緩行する The car slowly drives through the middle of the road. (Sounds literal - novel-ish)
勘考:考える(kangaeru) 勘考する必要がある The need to consider exists. (As opposed to 'We need to consider.)
慣行:慣わし・仕来り(narawashi/shikitari) 慣行を破る To break the traditions. (This might be common.)
観光:見物(mimono) 観光客 Tourist (For coining words only.)
Example cited: common variant (Japanese pronunciation in romaji) Example; Translation (Comments)

Geoffrey Sampson perhaps was focusing more on writing system, and thus caused this misunderstanding. Verbal communication to convey complicated concepts are very possible, thanks to kun'yomi and on'yomi differences, which Sinitic languages don't have. Eg.
Procedure - tetsudzuki susok shou3xu4 手續
English - Japanese Korean Mandarin Hanji
Considering the various homonyms for /su/ in Korean, I don't doubt susok to be a homonym of another compound word - especially when 俗 is another common candidate for /sok/. Te is the kun'yomi for hand, on'yomi shuu. Tsudzuki is the kun'yomi for continue.

Besides, Sampson was picking on the weakness of Japanese. In fact, Japanese retained a lot of the Middle Chinese Phonology that Mandarin did not. Kan, which merges kan, kam, and kang, and kou which merges kong, kou, kwang, and kang (perhaps more) are just the minorities. Consider 鐵 tetsu for tie3 - the -t, while in Mandarin it is not even in the 2nd or the 4th tone where jip sounds usually merge into. 宅 taku for zhai3 - the -k. Only -p merged into -uu - script problem. Fu was pronounced pu; 給 gyuu (Mandarin gei3 is no where better though.)

By the way, none of the cited 'kan's exists alone, nor is common in daily speech without any suffixes.

The problem is worse in Korean in this sense, considering lack of direct mapping between local term and hanja. 册 book (also pronounced chhaek as in Hokkien) corresponds to 策 and 責 too, which are relatively frequent hanjas. Though, as Sampson has mentioned, it is not obvious at all with the diversity of available pronunciation in Korean despite lack of tone, albeit still worse when they have no choice but to write in those words. Then again, they solve it by labelling the meant hanja in parenthesis - reliance on hanja, though to a lesser extent.

I hope you guys understand me. ^^ I wouldn't be able to be online for the rest of the week - don't want to wait for a reply, only to be welcomed by heated debates caused by misunderstandings. >.<
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by SimL »

Hi Yeleixingfeng,

As I don't know both Japanese and Korean, it's impossible for me to comment on your disagreement with Sampson, as to the degree of the "homonym problem" in the two languages. You appear to know a bit of both, so I will take note your disagreement.

What sometimes happens is that people become experts in a field, but may not have detailed knowledge in a specific sub-area of the field itself. Something like that can happen particularly in a field like "orthographies", where people learn from others what the principles of a particular orthography are, without necessarily being able to speak or read/write the language in question.

Like if you're an expert in "the Dutch political system", then perhaps you really know a lot about that area, but if you're an expert in "political systems in general", then you might have a rough idea of the Dutch political system (and might use it to contrast with others), but you might get some of the details wrong.

Perhaps Ah-bin - who does (or at least, did) speak Japanese - would care to comment?

I did check up on Sampson - here is the Wikipedia article on him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Sampson.

Indeed, it does appear that he's more of a computer scientist than a linguist, though the article does say that "Sampson is cited twice as an authority on writing systems in Encyclopædia Britannica" (not that that necessarily counts for that much, but still, perhaps better credentials than "he had a holiday in Japan in 1980, and told me this at a party"!).

I can give a concrete example of the above phenomenon involving myself.

Writing systems / orthographies is one of my pet topics, and I thought I knew something about the script(s) used for the various languages of India (broadly speaking: (the scripts) descended from Devanagari etc). One of the things I "thought" I knew was that the letter symbols in these scripts generally consist of a consonant and an inherent vowel (usually "-a"), and that there is a special symbol - the so-called "vowel killer" - that one must use if one wants to write the consonant by itself - i.e. without its inherent vowel. So, if one writes <consonant1><consonant2>, then this spells [consonant1][a][consonant2][a] (because each of the consonants has its inherent "-a"), and so, if one wants to write the syllable [consonant1][a][consonant2] only (e.g. "san"), then one must write <consonant1><consonant2><vowelkiller>. Or, if one wants to write the syllable [consonant1][consonant2][a][consonant3] (e.g. "stan"), then one must write <consonant1><vowelkiller><consonant2><consonant3><vowelkiller>, as the only consonant having its inherent vowel is the middle one. (I hope that makes sense.)

Anyway, I thought I understood this idea reasonably well, but when I spoke to some people who were native speakers of Tamil, and fluent in reading and writing Tamil (or it could have been another language of India), they said "No, there's no such thing". Now, either they were linguistically very unaware, and were just wrong (how many completely nonsensical pronouncements about Chinese can one hear from perfectly intelligent, well-educated Chinese), or I had understood the basic principle, but it didn't really hold for that particular Indian language.

So, I'm just saying that it's quite possible to think one understands the principles of something (and perhaps these principles are even correct in very broad outline), but nothing beats actually knowing the details (but then, as a scientifically approached and analyzed study, not - as in the previous paragraph - as just a lay native-speaker).

As I don't know any more about Sampson, it's impossible for me to determine the relative merits of his presentation vs the counter examples you give.
Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by Ah-bin »

but just the fact alone of the absence of tone in Japanese means that (what are now still) 4 distinct syllables in Modern Mandarin would merge into one syllable in Japanese.
That is usually the case, but not with syllables that were historically iíp-siaⁿ入聲, this is where Mandarin loses out:
力 riki/ryoku
利 ri
立 ritsu/ryuu
曆 reki/ryaku
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by SimL »

Ah, right. Point taken.
Yeleixingfeng
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

Lol... Indian scripts.. Now, this is something I am not really good at..
Devanagari is the mother of all Indian scripts. (In fact I suspect the individual letters of all Indian scripts resemble that of Devanagari. Holds true, if you compare all of the scripts.)
Tamil, unlike Sanskrit, was not used as a professional language, and was more colloquail than Sanskrit. That's why a complicated writing system was not advisable. What they did, was simply:
Stan. {s}{s dot}{ta}{n dot}
Hence a vowel killer is not needed. Or you might say, the dot beneath the consonant is the vowel killer.
Btw, in Devanagari, st would be a combined letter of s and t. As to how to combine... That is entirely personal, I think. Which is why I can't read Hindi and Sanskrit even until now. These combined letters drive me insane. >.<

{Edit} - Sorry. The Tamil vowel killer is above the consonant - not below.
Last edited by Yeleixingfeng on Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by amhoanna »

夜雷星蜂,汝是天才!

I was under the impression that the Indic scripts are related, but aren't necessarily all descended from any one "living" script. The similarities are definitely clear in most cases. The Phils scripts are the ones that make me go, "Whoa, these are Indic scripts???"
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien alternative names for Technology Stuff

Post by SimL »

amhoanna wrote:I was under the impression that the Indic scripts are related, but aren't necessarily all descended from any one "living" script.
From memory (but don't quote me on this), they are. At least, that's the simple version. The more complex version may have something about them all being descended from an ancestor of it, but in the sense that a large proportion are directly descended from it, and another small number from an ancestor which branched off earlier. But I'd have to check up on that.
Yeleixingfeng wrote:Btw, in Devanagari, st would be a combined letter of s and t. As to how to combine... That is entirely personal, I think.
Yes, I'd forgotten about the "ligatures": consonant clusters can also be represented by specific graphemes which are evolved from mergers between the two consonants written/fused together. "Evolved" in the sense that they sometimes bear little resemblance to the two individual consonants written separately. And you're right, some of the Indic scripts have one or two hundred of these ligatures, all of which have to be individually learnt. I must confess, I don't know whether the "ligature-system" and the "vowelkiller-system" are completely separate, in the sense that one script has one, and another script has the other, or whether some or all Indic scripts have a mix of them.
Locked