Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

siamiwako wrote:
Ah-bin wrote: 4) that reminds me sék 熟 is "familiar" but there is also sek meaning "smart" (Sim told me this) perhaps it should be written as 識?
could sék 熟 also means cooked in Penang Hokkien?
do you say sek chiⁿ 精 to mean smart ass?
I have:
1. "sek8" 熟 (= "ripe", or "(well/properly) cooked), as in Mandarin)
2. "sek4" [character unknown] (= "smart", with overtones of "cunning", "sneaky")

Then I have "sek4_sai3/7" (= "familiar"), so I guess the first syllable in this one is indeed "sek8".
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

SimL wrote:
Mark Yong wrote:Your inclusion of the nasalisation in the last syllable is interesting, as I have neither noticed nor used it before. As such, all the while, I thought (I notice you spelt it with a ch- initial) would have been just , i.e. 家婆姊 “nosey old sister” (sister, as in the context of an old lady/aunty/etc.)
My usage has nasalization. I've always associated it with "ciN1" (= "to force something into something else", like stuffing a chicken with filling, or trying to get the last items into an overfull suitcase or bag), because the person who is a busybody "forces" their way into other people's business.
Oops, sorry, on re-reading the thread, I see that you also remark about "ke" vs "kE". Indeed, in Penang Hokkien, it's "ke". BTW, if you can find it, niuc (and others) have said quite a lot about this term in the past - perhaps about 2 years ago....
Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

Hi, Sim,

Here's what I managed to dig up from our Minnan thread archives on keh-poh:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10785&p=33714
Doesn't help much, though. :cry:

The tricky part is that the term is pronounced exactly the same in Penang and Singapore. If we assume that the -E/-e and -e/-ue mappings between Penang Hokkien and Singapore Hokkien hold, then neither nor would fit, as it would either be kE-poh in Penang, or kue-poh in Singapore. But for the life of me, I have not been able to identify a suitable morpheme that is pronounced ke on both ends of the peninsular - which then leads me to believe that perhaps it is the Penang variety that broke trend, and turned kE into ke, i.e. it is . This would not be improbable, as there are quite a few exceptions in Penang Hokkien where it does not obey the 漳州 Ciang-Ciu pronunciation patterns, e.g. 相信 siong-sin.
Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

SimL wrote:
My usage of "phòa-ke•h" is different. I use it to mean "profligate", "a wastrel".

If someone is a rich man's son, and just spends and spends his money on cars, and alcohol and night clubs etc, doesn't manage his money well, then that is "phòa-ke•h" in my usage.
This is the first time I am hearing this term in Hokkien, but going by your definition, I am taking a leap of faith here and hazarding a guess that in this instance, it is 破家. The Standard Chinese equivalent would be 敗家子, which would be the proverbial Prodigal Son.
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Hi Mark,

For "ke-po", I agree with you that it is entirely possible that Penang Hokkien which has taken on a vowel which is at odds with its "historically appropriate" one. As you say, there are other known examples.

For "phua-kEh", the problem with 家 is that the pronounced word has an "-h" at the end, which I don't think 家 ever has. Not only that, but it's "kEh4", with low-short/checked tone, whereas "kE1" is middlehigh-unchecked.

[On the other hand, Douglas has ": ... phoa3-ke1, to injure the fortune of the house, as bride having bad horoscope (v. ke). ..." and " ... phoa3-ke1, to waste family property; to injure the good luck of the family, as a bride having a bad horoscope. phoa-ke-kiaN2, a wasteful son. ...". The first and last examples under are exactly my usage, so that's a strong indication that you're right.]

On a slightly different topic, did anyone mention "lap4_chiong5" (= "Chinese sausage") when we were talking about borrowed Cantonese words into Penang Hokkien. I'm pretty sure: 1) that this is the normal Penang Hokkien word for those awful, greasy, waxy-looking red things :mrgreen:, 2) that it's from Cantonese.
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

Just popping by to ask,

I went to Ipoh, and I realised something - people there talk Cantonese A LOT!!! It's nothing as compared to Penang. Hawkers talk in Cantonese - normal. All families talk in Cantonese, even the younger generations - not-so normal. Salesmen approach customers in CANTONESE - uncommon! I wonder what is the reason?
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Hi Yeleixingfeng,

This has been the case since the middle of the 20th century (probably for a lot longer). The north and south of the Malay Peninsula are Hokkien-speaking, and the middle bit is Cantonese-speaking (I mean among the Chinese, obviously).

In my youth, I had the impression (but what does the average 14-year-old know of geography and linguistics!) that Taiping*** was the farthest south large town (in the north) where Hokkien was the lingua franca (among Chinese), and Malacca was the farthest north large town (in the south) where Hokkien was the lingua franca (among Chinese).

So, specifically, Ipoh, KL, and Seremban were the 3 major towns in the middle where Cantonese was the lingua franca - at least, that's the situation for the West Coast of the Peninsular. The "northern band" and the "southern band" stretch across to the East Coast - Kelantan and (at least) northern Trengganu are Hokkien-speaking, and Johore goes all the way across anyway, but I don't really know what happens in the middle bit of the East Coast, i.e. Pahang.

***: Taiping. When speaking Malaysian English or Penang Hokkien, we always pronounced it "tai1_peng2", never "tai1_ping2" - and in any case never with the aspirated initials - or tones - of the Mandarin "tai4" and "ping2".

PS. Please forgive me if I've done the Hakkas, Teochews, Hainanese, or any other non-Hokkien, non-Cantonese groups an injustice. I remember now that Sitiawan was(?) a (largely) Hockchew-speaking city. This gets quite a lot of mention in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitiawan.

PPS. The speaking of Hokkien was so widely prevalent in Penang that there were (in my youth, some) Indians who could speak (Penang) Hokkien to the extent that you'd never know that they were not Chinese, if you just heard them speaking. These were obviously Indians who were born and bred in Penang. Again, I have no idea whether that still might be the case.
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Further research on "phua-kEh".

Barclay (p98) has these entries: " ... phoa3-keh4, unlucky; hurtful. phoa3-keh4 e5 gin2-na2, a child that brings ill-luck, is troublesome to rear. chit8 hang7 e5 phoa3-keh4, a blemish. chhut4-tioh8 phoa3-keh4-mihN8, to produce something hurtful to oneself, as prodigal son. ..."

I'm pretty sure it's this one. Nice that we've now got the definition and the character, Ah-bin :mrgreen:.
Ah-bin
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Ah-bin »

I'm pretty sure it's this one. Nice that we've now got the definition and the character, Ah-bin :mrgreen:.
Sorry, I should have said that I had found this word 破格 in Douglas, but that i just wanted to check whether the "no class" definition fitted with the way people were using it in Penang. I already had 破家 in my notebook from a conversation with you, so I was quite sure that it was a different word.

I am not surprised if the ke in Ke-po-chiⁿ is 家, because the chiⁿ is a distinctively Amoy/Choan-chiu pronunciation too. Like 自然 I think the Amoy pronunciation just got the upper hand.

Thank you again everyone for your contributions!
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Ah-bin wrote:窮人 = san-ch'ia lang/kieng lang
I'd say "bo lui e lang" but there is probably another way to say it.
I'd leave out the "e". It not wrong of course, but I feel that "bo-lui-lang" (with "lui" sandhied to "lui3/7_" would be the usual way to say it.
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