Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

[SimL]

BTW, wish I could watch the videos. They're eclipsed by gahmen fiat in these parts.

Do you mean the two youtube clips that niuc posted? Erm... I'm afraid I've forgotten where you're at, at the moment... Could you remind me?

[SimL]

On a side issue from the "ke-po-chiN" issue (but resulting from it):

I'm now intensely puzzled by the Penang Hokkien word "ciN1" (= "to stuff", "to force into"). I'm sure it's TONE1, but I can't find it in Douglas/Barclay!

The closest is "ciN3" (given as 進 in both Douglas and Barclay), with the meaning: "to stuff into".

But I never say it with TONE3, always TONE1.

"he-le siauN siauN tiN liau, mang khi ti-ti ciN mih-kiaN jip-khi" (= "that trunk is too full already, don't keep trying to force/stuff more things into it").

"ai-yo, ci-pun cheh ni? be gia liau - khuaN e ciN jip-khi gua e te-a bo?" (= "oh dear, what about this book? We can't take it any more - let's see if we can stuff it into my pocket").

[amhoanna]

So what's the Hokkien pronunciation for Taiping? Is it Thaipéng? or Thaipêng? or Tháipêng? Penang is Pin-eng / Pi-neng (mid-level, high-level), right? Or is it mid-level, mid-level?

I think Muar / Moâpo͘ is also a Hoklo (Malay and Hoklo) town, with some Teochew too.

What's the "second lingua franca" (besides Malay) in Pasang? Is it Cantonese or Hokkien? Mandarin seemed to be more popular in Pasang than in KL, at least in the port area. A couple of KL-area Hokkiens proudly told me that they like to "switch Cantonese people to Mandarin" (rather than humiliating their forefathers by speaking another South Chinese language? ) -- a common Hokkien sentiment, I'm sure ... although from anecdotal evidence, I think the Cantonese (but not Hakka) would rather switch to Hokkien than Mandarin, if it ever came to that. And indeed in Penang the Cantonese have done just that.

My experience in Sabah: U're good as gold with either Cantonese or Mandarin. Kudat is so Hakka that people addressed me in Hakka, and kids spoke Hakka at their online gaming spot. Canto is king in Sandakan, Mando in KK. In Labuan, young local Chinese were in the 識听唔識講 stage with their Hokkien. Lots of great "culture shock" stories from Sabah. I'll have to save these for the book.

I went to Ipoh, and I realised something - people there talk Cantonese A LOT!!! It's nothing as compared to Penang. Hawkers talk in Cantonese - normal. All families talk in Cantonese, even the younger generations - not-so normal. Salesmen approach customers in CANTONESE - uncommon! I wonder what is the reason?

Do U mean Cantonese is used more in Ipoh than Hokkien is in Penang?? Or more than Hokkien in Ipoh? Or do U feel kind of surprised or offended that Cantonese trumps Mandarin and English there? Don't mind me.

Àmhoanná (Tn̂gsoaⁿ)

[Mark Yong]

Yeleixingfeng wrote:
I went to Ipoh, and I realised something - people there talk Cantonese A LOT!!! It's nothing as compared to Penang. Hawkers talk in Cantonese - normal. All families talk in Cantonese, even the younger generations - not-so normal. Salesmen approach customers in CANTONESE - uncommon! I wonder what is the reason?

amhoanna wrote:
Do U mean Cantonese is used more in Ipoh than Hokkien is in Penang?? Or more than Hokkien in Ipoh? Or do U feel kind of surprised or offended that Cantonese trumps Mandarin and English there?

I think I know what he means...

In Penang, there is this invisible 'cut-off point' where people tend to use Mandarin, or at least not use Hokkien. As far as families go, this would mainly be those families where at least one parent is of non-Hokkien descent (even though both parents can speak the dialect). The other group would be the Chinese-educated Hokkien families who are very conscious of the value of Mandarin. You will find that in most cases, the Hokkien families with three generations under one roof would tend to have children who speak and are spoken to in Hokkien, to facilitate communications with their grandparents.

The other instance is, yes, your everyday salesperson (and I mean those who approach you at departmental stores, food courts, etc., selling credit cards, insurance, etc.). Most of them would be in their 20's, and therefore belong to the Mandarin-educated (read: indoctrinated) generation who have had less exposure to the richer aspects of Hokkien vocabulary, or even Hokkien cognates with the Modern Standard Chinese terminology. As such, they would naturally feel less confident in using Hokkien when discussing and sales-pitching more complex commercial subjects with potential customers.

In this case, I am not inclined to believe that it is due to the (mis)conception of Hokkien's 'low esteem', as the target audience are local Penangites who, in all likelihood, would know and use the dialect to some extent. As a personal example, in my six years in Penang, I have only ever encountered one salesperson who started and ended the presentation to me and my colleagues in Hokkien (incidentally, it was also the first time I learnt how to pronounce 產品, 代理 and 支持 in Hokkien - all in that one sitting).

By the way, I have discovered that one very effective way to stop a Mandarin-speaking salesperson in Penang dead in his tracks and have him/her automatically switch to Hokkien in a blink of an eye, is simply to say to him/her, “我【不會】曉聽華語 wa b'eh hiau thiaⁿ hua2-yu3”. And given Malaysia's education system, it's not uncommon to encounter a local Chinese Penangite who truly does not speak Mandarin (though, it would be rarer than, say, in Kuala Lumpur). Not meaning to sound deprecating, but 99% of the Chinese-educated salespersons I have encountered in Penang do not speak very good English, so eliminating Mandarin basically leaves them with just Hokkien. I sometimes use that trick, because my Mandarin listening skills are just plain crap.

But as far as my work experience in the Penang semiconductor industry is concerned, I have almost-always spoken to my suppliers and contractors primarily in Hokkien (with English intrusions as-and-when technical terms creep in), with the only 3 minority exceptions being:
1. the vendor is not a local Penangite and/or Hokkien
2. the vendor was acquainted with me before I started speaking passable Hokkien, and we stuck with Mandarin as a result
3. the vendor is not of Chinese descent (and even then, I have had one vendor of Punjabi descent who spoke to me in a ragbag of fluent Hokkien and equally-fluent English!).
No doubt, this - and my membership with a couple of the local Chinese martial arts academies (where the purer and oftentimes more colourful aspects of Penang Hokkien is regularly spoken) - accelerated my grasp of the dialect within a relatively short period of time.

I shall avail myself of listing the many reasons why Cantonese is so established, entrenched and accepted as a practical alternative to Mandarin - have addressed that in a previous post, and articles on the subject are legion via the WWW. Suffice to say that Cantonese has, for various reasons, established itself as something of an 'identity language' that allow the speakers of Southern Chinese descent to distinguish themselves.

I know I have harped on this a lot, but I will say it again: I believe the problem is education and exposure. If the younger generation are taught and/or exposed to (via proper media channels) Hokkien on a broad scope of subjects, they will then start to realise, "oh, so you express <this-and-that> Mandarin term this way in Hokkien!" Do that a couple of hundred times a year, and I am confident that your Generation Y/Z of Penangites will be well on its way to confidently using the dialect in complex situations. In that sense, for whatever criticisms I have read against the Penang Hokkien podcast, John Ong's efforts are truly a blessing for Penang Hokkien (that's my way of saying "if you think it's not good, then why don't you go do something better, instead of criticising?") - look how much it has benefitted Ah-bin, to cite just one example.

[amhoanna]

Here we go -- a Cantonese (or half-Cantonese) guy that prefers Hokkien to Mandarin!

I have discovered that one very effective way to stop a Mandarin-speaking salesperson in Penang dead in his tracks and have him/her automatically switch to Hokkien in a blink of an eye, is simply to say to him/her, “我【不會】曉聽華語 wa b'eh hiau thiaⁿ hua2-yu3”.

That's how it's done! I did this once in Taipak, I mean Thai Bay, but in a pub. Waitress had to speak Baba Hokkien to us all night. With street salespeople, since they're in the "lower position", I just switch them to Hoklo straight-up. Different people react differently.

Mark, U mention a lack of vocabulary as an obstacle. What happens when U switch a salesperson to Hoklo using the no-Mandarin line? Do they try to power through their presentation in pure Hoklo? Or do they code-switch with English?

I have had one vendor of Punjabi descent who spoke to me in a ragbag of fluent Hokkien and equally-fluent English!).

Gotta love that dimension. Does anybody know anything about the singer Rajakumara? Or Peggy Phang? Indian bloodlines, Hokkien singing career.

Cantonese has, for various reasons, established itself as something of an 'identity language' that allow the speakers of Southern Chinese descent to distinguish themselves.

Yes!

[Mark Yong]

amhoanna wrote:
Mark, U mention a lack of vocabulary as an obstacle. What happens when U switch a salesperson to Hoklo using the no-Mandarin line? Do they try to power through their presentation in pure Hoklo? Or do they code-switch with English?

First off, the salesperson will assume that I am an 紅毛屎 ang-mOh sai (why else wouldn't I, a yellow-skinned bugger, understand Mandarin?).

Next, depending on his/her command of English, he/she may then try to switch to English. In this instance, I will respond in pure Hokkien, with the intention of putting him/her at ease that I can speak some form of Chinese (and whether or not he/she considers Hokkien as a legitimate form of Chinese is not a concern to me). If he/she responds in Hokkien right from the word 'go' without recourse to English, so much the better.

9 out of 10 times, within the afore-mentioned 2-3 exchanges, the conversation will proceed predominantly in Hokkien without problems. I may be forced to throw him/her a couple of curveballs in the form of Mandarin terms (and that is only because I myself do not know the Hokkien terms!), making him/her wonder if I was bull-sh*tting when I said I did not know Mandarin. But by then, the Hokkien trend would have been established, making it too weird to switch to Mandarin (and even if he/she attempted to, I would steer the conversation back to Hokkien). And conversely, if they used the Mandarin terms for words which I knew the Hokkien cognates or equivalents to, I would deliberately respond immediately with 1-2 sentences that included those words in Hokkien, as a subtle hint to them to 'keep it pure, please'. And it tends to work. Psychology is an amazing thing...

As to whether they bulldoze through in pure Hokkien, again, depends on their level of fluency. If they can, they will. If they cannot, a couple of Mandarin or English terms (depending on whether they sense that I actually know some Mandarin after all!) will creep in to supplement the conversation - which, as mentioned, I either subtly correct if I am able to, or I let it pass and not let it stifle the conversation. I would say the ratio of Hokkien vs. Mandarin/English is around 85%:15%. To me, that's still a helluva lot better than 0% Hokkien.

Now, there are exceptions. I have encountered some senior sales managers whom, upon knowing that I am not a local Penangite, will insist on speaking to me predominantly in English. In 9 out of 10 cases, they themselves are 紅毛屎 ang-mOh sai, and actually heave a sigh of relief being able to speak to me in English, rather than struggle with a limited knowledge of Hokkien (despite their having lived in Penang all their lives). In these instances, I don't play hardball and just revert to English - no point ruining the conversation if the other party just can't/won't hack it. Besides, I get enough sparring practice with the remaining 90+% - who comprise mainly the younger generation, and therefore are the ones I target for linguistic reform.

Truth be told, I didn't do the “我【不會】曉聽華語 wa b'eh hiau thiaⁿ hua2-yu3” all the time. The minute the salesperson opens his/her mouth and starts the sentence in Mandarin, I immediately respond to the statement in Hokkien. 4 out of 5 times, they switch to Hokkien. Otherwise, if they continue stubbornly in Mandarin, then out comes the tagline! But I had to be careful - sometimes, the salesperson him/herself is not a local Penangite, so the tactic may backfire (but in those cases, it would likely be Cantonese).

Summary: The high rate of receptiveness among the candidates in responding and carrying on in Hokkien convinces me that all the young Penangites need is a gentle push of encouragement to use Hokkien in formal contexts such as sales, and not necessarily have to fall back on Mandarin. For instance, I once managed a team of young engineers in their early-to-mid 20's (mind you, I worked in a multi-national corporation). They would speak Mandarin amongst themselves, but when they spoke to me - whether one-on-one or in a group context, it would always be Hokkien. How so? Because I set the trend right from Day #1 (using the same approach as with the salespersons), simple as that. And they knew I was literate in Chinese (from my occasional handwritten notes left on my desk) - they just didn't know how much more/less comfortable I would be speaking in Mandarin, something which I was perfectly happy to have remain a mystery to them!

amhoanna wrote:
Here we go -- a Cantonese (or half-Cantonese) guy that prefers Hokkien to Mandarin!

PS. 吾惠州城客家也、非廣府人也。

[SimL]

[Does anyone know the TLJ for "pi3" in that sense...?]

A lifetime of habit is hard to shake! I MUST realise that I now have a character-enriched Douglas, and I should always look there first. The character is undoubtedly 痺.

Oops, I accidentally removed my original reply, while trying to reply to it (by hitting "edit" instead of "quote"), and now it's lost!

It was to do with the pronunciation of Taiping and Penang: tai1_peng2 (mid-level, high-slightlyfalling), and pi3_nEng2 (low-level, high-slightlyfalling), and I felt they were very Baba pronunciation, with no reference to the original Chinese tones. The "pi3" in Penang made me wonder about pins-and-needles, from one's foot going to sleep, and I asked for what the TLJ for it was. After that, I found out for myself, from Douglas.

[SimL]

Mark,

I really love your stories of your 6 years in Penang. I never realised that we had such an important ambassador for Hokkien, working away with such determination! Just for the record (my apologies if you've told me/us this elsewhere): which were the years that you were there?

[Mark Yong]

Hi, Sim,

No worries, I myself do not recall if I ever mentioned about the details of my stay in Penang (other than the 6-year duration). The period of my career and residence in Penang was, to be precise, between mid-February 1998 and mid-February 2004.

[SimL]

Ah-bin,

I hope you've got 痺 in your dictionary.