Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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SimL
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Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

amhoanna wrote:Here we go -- a Cantonese (or half-Cantonese) guy that prefers Hokkien to Mandarin! :P
Wow, I feel honoured :mrgreen:.

With regards to Cantonese, I have a small confession to make. For a lot of my life (until the early 90's) I was quite strongly anti-Cantonese. This was a result of many experiences in my youth (particularly between the ages of 16 and 30). In those days, I went frequently to Chinese restaurants in various parts of the world (in particular, London and Sydney). These were the places where I would inevitably run into Cantonese (i.e. the waiters and shop owners), and these encounters would generally be unpleasant. The basic tone of them would always be "you're obviously Chinese, you should damned well be able to speak Cantonese!". It sometimes got so nasty that they would refuse to serve me in any other language than Cantonese, and in doing so, they would make their contempt for me very clear.

My usual reaction to this attitude was "their variant isn't 'standard Chinese' either, who do they think they are?". On one or two occasions, I replied only in Hokkien (not very productive!), and sometimes I would just walk out of the restaurants. Other times we'd just struggle on with mutual antogonism on both sides.

Since the mid-90's this has changed considerably. With increasing globalisation, these restauranteurs probably come into contact with more and more Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese Thais / Indonesians (or fair-skinned Thais), American-born Chinese, Australian-born Chinese, etc, who might also not speak any Cantonese. And a whole new generation of waitering staff has arisen (perhaps the children of these people who held me in such contempt) - much younger people, who grew up in the West, and hence didn't resent my not speaking Cantonese at all.

In any case, I realised somewhere in the mid to late 90's that the old friction in almost every encounter in a Chinese restaurant had - unnoticed by me - disappeared, and that I could just go into one and have a pleasant Chinese meal. I also realised that the old anti-Cantonese attitude I used to have was no longer relevant, and I no longer needed to have it!

[Also, I have since had similar unpleasant encounters with speakers from other groups - I think two such incidents have been posted on this Forum. One was a waitress in Singapore who refused to serve me in anything other than Mandarin, and the other was a janitor of a flat in Taiwan, who refused to speak to me (or acknowledge my existence) because (he'd heard from my friends who lived there, that) I didn't speak Mandarin. So, I guess I realised that "language-discrimination" exists in many other groups than just the Cantonese, and was more an individual than a group thing.]

So, these days, I don't have any anti-Cantonese feelings (aside perhaps from a slight sadness that their variant does so well on the world scale, compared to mine).
SimL
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Mark Yong wrote:Hi, Sim,

No worries, I myself do not recall if I ever mentioned about the details of my stay in Penang (other than the 6-year duration). :lol: The period of my career and residence in Penang was, to be precise, between mid-February 1998 and mid-February 2004.
Thanks. I don't suppose you can continue your pro-Hokkien activities in Australia...? (Except for writing here on the Forum, and helping Ah-bin out with answers of course - both also quite significant.)
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

Hi, Sim,

Thanks for sharing your experiences, and sorry to hear that your encounters with the Cantonese speakers were none too pleasant.

In my opinion, the antagonism that you faced from the Cantonese and Mandarin speakers was more of elitism rather than discrimination. In the case of Cantonese, it had a lot to do with Hong Kong. I will be very open and blunt here, and state quite flatly that back a few decades ago, Hong Kongers were generally a rather haughty bunch by nature (and I am not saying this without basis; it is something my father personally experienced during his trips there).

Given the socio-political-economic factors that I shall not repeat here, it is therefore not surprising that the other dialects were looked upon with disdain. Therefore, when I think deeper about it, it would have been very difficult for Hokkien to evolve to the same status as Mandarin and Cantonese. And I am not even referring to the proportion of speakers in relation to the total Chinese diaspora - if it was purely a numbers game, then on the basis of concentration of speakers in a single geographical location, Shanghainese (and I am not even including the Wu dialect group as a whole) at 14 million speakers today (that said, fast diminishing, proving that vox populi does not necessarily prevail against potentas regnum!) would flatten Hong Kong Cantonese by a conservative 2-to-1.

I know it sounds depressing, but my view is that Hokkien - like Hakka - was destined to be what I would call ‘a Chinese migrant diaspora dialect’ - with a large number of speakers as a whole, but globally spread out over pockets of communities across the 南洋 Lam-Ioⁿ. It is fortunate that we live in the technology era, where Hokkien speakers who would otherwise have used and preserved the dialect in isolation, can now be joined as a virtual global Hokkien community.
SimL wrote:
I don't suppose you can continue your pro-Hokkien activities in Australia...?
Actually, Sim... I can, and do. :P

Among the very few friends I have in Sydney is an old classmate of my brother-in-law. He hails from Merbok (Kedah), and therefore speaks our familiar ‘Northern Malaya’ strain of Hokkien (though, one unique feature I have observed is his pronunciation of as gout instead of goeh - I suspect it is a Singling trait, as my ex-boss' wife is a Singling, and her name 月明 is Romanised as Goot Beng).

So, I make it a point to speak pure Hokkien to him all the time (whenever he and his wife invite me over to their lovely home for dinner on an average fortnightly basis) - which he is most happy to comply with, given that it is the language he is most comfortable with, as well as the obvious acute lack of speakers in his own equally-small social circle. It also helps that he is Chinese-educated, which makes the psychological mapping of Hokkien-pronounced words with their Standard Chinese cognates easy. His wife is an Australian-born-and-raised Hong Kong girl who speaks absolutely fluent Cantonese (so does my friend, and they speak it with their daughter) with impeccable vocabulary, but feels quite at ease when her husband and I yarn endlessly in Hokkien (though, out of politeness, I make it a point to paraphrase every couple of sentences to her in Cantonese, so that she can keep abreast with the conversation and join in) - I suspect she already understands quite a bit of the dialect already!
amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by amhoanna »

For instance, I once managed a team of young engineers in their early-to-mid 20's (mind you, I worked in a multi-national corporation). They would speak Mandarin amongst themselves, but when they spoke to me - whether one-on-one or in a group context, it would always be Hokkien. How so? Because I set the trend right from Day #1
Respect!
吾惠州城客家也、非廣府人也。 :P
令母弗廣府人咩? :mrgreen:
tai1_peng2 (mid-level, high-slightlyfalling), and pi3_nEng2 (low-level, high-slightlyfalling), and I felt they were very Baba pronunciation, with no reference to the original Chinese tones
Ah, okay. Taipéng and Pīnéng, using my personal (TWese) notation. Probably both Malay names anyway?
The basic tone of them would always be "you're obviously Chinese, you should damned well be able to speak Cantonese!". It sometimes got so nasty that they would refuse to serve me in any other language than Cantonese, and in doing so, they would make their contempt for me very clear.
I've got memories of sitting in Cantonese dim sum parlors with my parents. Sitting and sitting, like, "When we gon' get served?" I've also got memories of going to dim sum parlors with my parents and my aunt and her lover. Her lover spoke Cantonese. The only thing I remember in that case was that there was a lot of food. :P These scenes may've been the first pivot where I decided to learn Cantonese, subconsciously. There were two languages I associated with becoming a man: Cantonese and Hoklo.

Later on, after I "grew up", I found out my aunt's man was actually Hoklo TWese.

Goá ca̍ppeh hoè soá khừkàu toā siâⁿchī. Now I was going to Tn̂glângke alone or with friends. At first I talked to everyone there in English, that seemed half-natural back then. I was learning Hoklo, with scattered efforts to learn Cantonese. Unlike with Hoklo, I just started speaking Cantonese w/o pain. :lol: I remember speaking really broken Cantonese even after college, but I also recall speaking it some in Chinatown during college. For a while I worked in a Vietnamese diner just off the lake in Oakland. Most of the staff were Kinh, but two or three were Tn̂glâng, and all of these spoke Cantonese. They identified as Vietnamese, but also as Chinese, and they saw me as one of their own. Even the Kinh did, as much as they could given that I couldn't speak their language. In fact, they took me in as their own even more than the suburban nisei Taiwanese on campus did. Hit cūn goá kanna dīca̍p hoè. U can imagine what effect that had on my identity!!! I also had some TWese "FOB" friends that had a lot of "HK people" in their circles. One of these guys got an HK girlfriend and learned to speak fluent Cantonese in a matter of months, forgetting what little Hoklo he knew in the process!

During my early-to-mid-20s, almost w/o effort, I got my Cantonese to a conversational level. It just felt completely natural. I ran into Cantonese situations all over the world. It was all totally natural. By age 25 I was only speaking Cantonese in Chinatown situations. I was glad I stopped being an ângmo͘sái. In contrast to the frustration I felt (and still feel) as a budding Hoklophone, speaking even just half-bucket Cantonese made me feel like a fish in water in Chinatown. Usually I got a good, loud "多謝 Tòcẹ!" when I got up to go, sometimes even service with a smile.

To close, in Chinatown, and in the Vietnamese diaspora, I've always perceived this kind of attitude that the following are "our" people: Cantonese/Kwongsai, Teochew, Hakka, Hoklo-Hokkien, Hainamese. The rest are all 北佬! :lol: The only evidence I have is anecdotal. Like the time a lady in Chinatown asked me, "你唔識講唐話咩?" b/c I'd ordered in Mandarin or English, probably b/c my Cantonese was in recession that month. I replied, "我識講福建話", and she seemed to grunt and convey respect through body language, as if to say, "Yeah, Fúkkinwá, that one is 唐話 too." Have U guys felt the same thing?
Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

amhoanna wrote:
令母弗廣府人咩? :mrgreen:
非也、家母爲福建客家人也。 :P
amhoanna wrote:
Have U guys felt the same thing?
Cantonese being my first dialect, I guess it does not apply to me! :lol: But I can share a reverse scenario that I witnessed at Penang's Gurney Drive. A tourist tried to order 炒粿條 cha-koeh-tiau from one of the stalls in Cantonese, and the 阿姨 ah-ee who was busy frying, without even looking up or batting an eyelid, gestured to her helper and said (in a mildly frustrated voice), “汝鬬共伊講一下、我【不會】曉聽! lu tau ka i kong jit-æ, wa b'eh-hiau thiaⁿ!” Poetic justice for Hokkien, if ever there was one! :lol:
amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by amhoanna »

非也、家母爲福建客家人也。
Pháiⁿsè then. I think I hallucinated something in one of our recent threads. I recall someone saying they were half Hakka and half Cantonese.
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Mark Yong wrote:Thanks for sharing your experiences, and sorry to hear that your encounters with the Cantonese speakers were none too pleasant. In my opinion, the antagonism that you faced from the Cantonese and Mandarin speakers was more of elitism rather than discrimination.
Thanks for your kind words about my experiences. It's really a long time ago, and I don't feel any more negativity about it - it's just interesting to think back to the situation then. And I agree with your analysis of why they behaved like that.
Mark Yong wrote:In the case of Cantonese, it had a lot to do with Hong Kong. I will be very open and blunt here, and state quite flatly that back a few decades ago, Hong Kongers were generally a rather haughty bunch by nature (and I am not saying this without basis; it is something my father personally experienced during his trips there).
Indeed, my family also has a number of stories about truly *awful* service in Hong Kong, in the 60's and 70's. The most memorable was where an uncle of mine (not the most snappy dresser!) was looking as some stuff in a shop. The shop assistants came up to him and said in a very aggressive manner: "oi mai, mai; moi mai, hang hoi!" - or something like that, my Cantonese is VERY limited (= "if you want to buy, buy; if you don't want to buy, go away!"). My uncle (from Malaysia, of course) had never encountered anything like that in his life! Chinese shop assistants in Malaysia in the 60's and 70's were always very polite and friendly.

So, when I went to HK in 1992, it was with a certain degree of trepidation. But, when I got there, I found everyone completely charming and nice. Despite the fact that Cantonese is the lingua franca there, and I look so Chinese, I had no trouble whatsoever, and didn't have even one single incident of "attitude". Friends later told me that one or two economic crises in the 1980's had made the HK-ers a little bit more humble.

I agree with your remarks about how it's basically the internet which has brought us together. Still, from this base, we can support one another in our efforts to promote Hokkien :P. Nice work you're doing in Sydney! I try and take an example from what you are doing, and aokh and Ah-bin as well. Let's see how I can promote Hokkien in Amsterdam!
SimL
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

amhoanna wrote:Ah, okay. Taipéng and Pīnéng, using my personal (TWese) notation.
Yes, if you mean to show the sandhied tone of first syllable (note that I connected them with an underscore "_" (as per niuc's convention), not with a hyphen "-" above). Otherwise, in the way many of the Forummers write: "tái-péng" and "pînéng" - with "(pseudo-)citation" forms for the first syllable. [Even as I say them to myself in my head, they sound more like "Malaysian sing-song Chinese-type English" than (even) Baba Hokkien.]
amhoanna wrote:Probably both Malay names anyway?
Well, Penang is from Pulau Pinang, and "pinang" is our much-discussed betel nut :mrgreen:.

I've always assumed "Taiping" was Chinese, as in the rebellion, but I don't know for sure.

According to the English Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping,_Perak (my emphasis): "Many Hakka had fled China when the Taiping Rebellion broke out there and found work in the mines of Chung Keng Quee establishing his position over the mining area in Larut as leader of the Hai San from 1860 to 1884." But, frustratingly, the article makes no mention of the origin of the name of the town.

Are there any other major towns or cities in Malaysia with Chinese names? I know of no others.

Australia has a place called "Tanah Merah": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanah_Merah,_Queensland. It used to surprise me, when I saw road-signs along the way, when we drove past (my parents live less than an hour away from there).
Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

SimL wrote:
I've always assumed "Taiping" was Chinese, as in the rebellion, but I don't know for sure.
The name “Taiping” is indeed 太平, meaning “eternal peace”. The name was given after the Larut Wars in the state of Perak.

Here is what I managed to dig up: http://www.journeymalaysia.com/MC_taiping.htm The last sentence on Paragraph 9 reads:

“Since Captain Speedy had a lot of experience and influence with the Malays and the Chinese, he was appointed as the Assistant Resident at Larut. He set aside 2 towns one named the Taiping or 'everlasting peace' for the Hakka Chinese and Kamunting for the rival group.”
SimL wrote:
Are there any other major towns or cities in Malaysia with Chinese names? I know of no others.
The other Malaysian town that I can think of which has a Chinese name is Yong Peng in the southern state of Johor, which is 永平 (it also means “eternal peace” - we must have had quite a few scuffles in Malaya back then! :lol: ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yong_Peng.
SimL wrote:
The shop assistants came up to him and said in a very aggressive manner: "oi mai, mai; moi mai, hang hoi!" - or something like that, my Cantonese is VERY limited (= "if you want to buy, buy; if you don't want to buy, go away!").
Interesting that the phrase is actually almost cognate with Hokkien. Word-for-word: 愛買(就)買、【不愛】買、行開!
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

Replying to sticking to Hokkien terms in a conversation,

I don't understand how you guys achieve this so easily, especially while I am having problems with even trying to stick with Chinese - Gostan vs 退後; Download vs 下載 etc; (FB) Like vs 讚. They don't even know the Mandarin version, how exactly do I introduce the Hokkien version? I actually have to stop to explain 讚 and 塗鴉牆 before continuing with my point -the conversation then twists into me and my eccentric ways to stick to the Chinese terms. Mark Yong is definitely right about this - EDUCATION!!

Replying to Malaysian towns in Chinese,
Ipoh - 怡保
Not sure about Kampar (金寶). Many Penang regions are separately named in Chinese, but they don't correspond to their Mala/official counterparts.
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