Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

Hi, Yeleixingfeng,

Perhaps my using the word ‘pure’ was a bit of an exaggeration, so please do not take it literally. What I meant was, in the case where the Hokkien term is commonly-known, I would use it. A ragbag of examples:

1. As a rule of thumb, almost all everyday items excluding those which surfaced during the technology era of the past two to three decades are in (手電 chiu-tien is one rare exception).

2. Just about anything IT-related is out. How would you expect to use the technical term 服務器 hOk-bu-khi for ‘server’, if even the common term 服務 hOk-bu for ‘service’ is not in common use? (In this respect, the Shanghainese do better - 上網 is zong-mong for them, but nobody says chiOⁿ-bang anywhere among Hokkien speakers in Malaysia or Singapore, not as far as I am aware.)

3. 電視機 tian-si-ki, 洗衫機 se-saⁿ-ki and 霜櫥 sng-tu are definitely in. One term that I use much more frequently in Sydney than Malaysia is 車房 chia-pang, as lock-up garages are uncommon for Malaysian homes. 泅水池 siu-cui-ti is in.

4. CD's and DVD's are out (partly because 光碟 does not make the technical distinction between the two). Unfortunately, so are microwave ovens (if it is a standard heating-element oven, then lO is in). 電筒 tian-thong is in.

5. 礦泉水 kuiⁿ-cuan-cui is in, but many people are not familiar with it.

6. Legal and commercial terms - 銀行 gin-hang, 利息 li-sik, 合同 hap-tang, 條件 tiau-kiaⁿ are all in.

I realise the bulk of the above are no-brainers for any Hokkien speaker worth his/her salt. But for those of you who live in Hokkien-speaking communities in Malaysia, you can appreciate how often the Hokkien speakers conveniently code-switch to their English or Mandarin equivalent terms out of habit.

Now, even what constitutes ‘commonly-known’ is subjective. To cite some examples:

1. The term 註册 cu-chEk for ‘registration’ is, to me, a commonly-known term, and one which I use all the time. But believe it or not, I have had Penangites blink and say “【不會】曉” when I use that term. In some extreme cases, even watering it down to the more colloquial 報名 po-miaⁿ didn't help (and sometimes, it's not even a valid substitution, because there is a subtle difference between 註册 and 報名).

2. It has so far been a 50-50 toss-up when I walk into a bank in Penang and say 戶口 hO-khau, that I am either understood without so much as a pause, or I get a “huh?” from the Hokkien-speaking teller.

There is, however, one class of words that, for reasons I cannot explain, never seem to feature in spoken Hokkien - the auxiliary terms. When was the last time you heard the following morphemes pronounced in Hokkien during conversations:
於, 乎, 而, 且, 既, 如,何, 或,肯
With the exception of and , I don't know how to pronounce the rest (and I don't mean 讀册音). This is a source of frustration for me, because:
1. I don't know how to say “關於...”
2. I don't know how to say “而且...”
3. I end up using 抑是 a-si for both 或者 and 還是 (and there should be a distinction, as one is a statement while the other is a question).
4. I end up using kam for .

The inability (well, mine, anyway! :lol: ) to pronounce auxiliary terms - the basic grammatical building blocks of any language, underscores the huge void in proper Hokkien education. In contrast, all of the above auxiliary terms are commonly uttered in Cantonese conversations. To me, I can (begrudgingly) live with Hokkien not absorbing modern technical jargon, but an absence of the majority of auxiliary terms in common speech is a serious lexical handicap that, to date, I have not been able to adequately fix for myself.
siamiwako
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 4:21 am

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by siamiwako »

I'm not from Penang hence my Hokkien can't be considered as Penang Hokkien. I can't be certain if my Hokkien is anywhere close to Penang's.

However, this is how I would say for the following phrases:
關於 = kuan yi
而且 = di ch'ia
肯 = k'eng
礦泉水 = k'ong tsua tsui
Yeleixingfeng
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

甘is actually better than 肯, etymologically. Sweetness can explain willingness better than a borrowed ideograph of foot-meat. And since we already have 甜 for sweet, I don't see why not.

Regarding the substitution of auxiliary terms with English counterparts, I can only say, Hokkien implies them better with hidden nuances. For example, 關於, Hokkien attaches a 'leh' to the mentioned term, which directly maps to one of the functions of 也. Notice how Classical Chinese managed to relay the same message without these auxiliarised(?) 虛化 verbs, which emphasizes the meaning of 關. So, actually I am with Penang Hokkien for this.
However, 而且 and 關於 is expressed with the same particle 'leh' - a disadvantage, I should think, especially in written script where the tonality is unclear.
Nonetheless, as Ah-Bin pointed out and as I have so reluctantly accepted, Penang Hokkien is ultimately determined by the Penangites speaking it. So... Yeah, I gave up - notice my relatively short posts nowadays.>.<

Literature-wise, I think Hokkien lacks of variety in vocabulary. I am working on translating lyrics, and it appears that besides 吼 we don't have any other commonly known words for 'cry' - 哭, 泣. This is one major problem too that obstructs Hokkien from truly becoming a written language. Poetry is nearly impossible, as colloquialism allows for only simple wordings - not to mention rhyming.
Ah-bin
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Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Ah-bin »

With the exception of 如 and 何, I don't know how to pronounce the rest (and I don't mean 讀册音). This is a source of frustration for me, because:
1. I don't know how to say “關於...”
2. I don't know how to say “而且...”
3. I end up using 抑是 a-si for both 或者 and 還是 (and there should be a distinction, as one is a statement while the other is a question).
4. I end up using 甘 kam for 肯.
I wouldn't get too frustrated about 1, 2, and 3, as I doubt that 或者, 關於, or 肯 existed in colloquial spoken Hokkien apart from in the speech of those who could read and write literary Chinese (a tiny minority) until fairly recently.

Number two would just be "Koh-ū", I think.
Interesting that the phrase is actually almost cognate with Hokkien. Word-for-word: 愛買(就)買、【不愛】買、行開!
I always thought that kiâⁿ-cháu 行走 was the Hokkien version of "go away", is it the same meaning? Which one is more common?
4. CD's and DVD's are out (partly because 光碟 does not make the technical distinction between the two). Unfortunately, so are microwave ovens (if it is a standard heating-element oven, then 爐 lO is in). 電筒 tian-thong is in.
Even in Mandarin in China, the names for DVD and CD are used every day, it is only state-sanctioned purism that keeps them out of dictionaries.

CD is no good for Hokkien because it means "dead pig" in most varieties (死豬) :lol:

DVD = 豬肥池
Ah-bin
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Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Ah-bin »

Nonetheless, as Ah-Bin pointed out and as I have so reluctantly accepted, Penang Hokkien is ultimately determined by the Penangites speaking it. So... Yeah, I gave up - notice my relatively short posts nowadays.>.<
No need to give up...it's a great hobby, and I got years of enjoyment out of doing it for Engiish.....just don't expect most people to take it seriously!
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

Ah-bin wrote:
I always thought that kiâⁿ-cháu 行走 was the Hokkien version of "go away", is it the same meaning? Which one is more common?
Oh, definitely 行走 kîaⁿ-cău in this instance. The reason for putting 行開 in my original post was simply to put some 唐儂字 to the Cantonese phrase that Sim provided, for his benefit.

行開 kîaⁿ-khūi conveys a slightly different meaning in Hokkien, i.e. ‘step aside (‘implying to make way’)’, not ‘go away’. And it's normally 行開淡薄 kîaⁿ-khūi tâm-poq.

Cantonese uses 行開一滴 hâang-hŏi yăt-tĭt or the more polite 借歪 cĒ-mÉ to convey the latter.
Mark Yong
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

Well, that's the thing I find both remarkable and inconceivable, that the ancestors of the Penang Hokkien speakers from 漳州 Ciang-Ciu could have managed everyday speech for centuries without these basic building blocks of speech, resorting to one generic “lehⁿ…” to cover multiple auxiliary functions, but yet possessing a full complement of 讀册音's for every conceivable Chinese character. I can understand that some of these auxiliary terms may not be Han cognates (būe ‘need’ being the classic example), but there must have at least been proper ways to express ‘regarding’, ‘anyway’, etc. in everyday conversations.

And paradoxically, if there were, in fact, such auxiliary terms in the ancestral 漳州 Ciang-Ciu speech, then it is an even more remarkable coincidence that virtually all of them disappeared from North Malayan Hokkien.

To be fair, Cantonese has this characteristic to a certain extent, too. The phrase 不然 is non-existent in Cantonese speech, resorting to the rather round-about and wordy 如果唔係 yû-kúo m-hâi (in this instance, Hokkien actually does better - 若無 nâ-bó).
SimL
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL »

Hi all,

I only have limited access through a blackberry which doesn't display TLJ, so will only respond next week.
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong »

siamiwako wrote:
I'm not from Penang hence my Hokkien can't be considered as Penang Hokkien. I can't be certain if my Hokkien is anywhere close to Penang's.

However, this is how I would say for the following phrases:
關於 = kuan yi
而且 = di ch'ia
肯 = k'eng
礦泉水 = k'ong tsua tsui
Hi, siamiwako,

Thanks a bundle for this. This is in no way an exclusively Penang Hokkien Forum (it just so happens that majority of the currently-active Forumers are speakers of the Penang variety), so any variant of Minnan is most welcome. Comparative studies is always a good thing, and we are all here to support one another as a community.

I personally see the Hokkien dialect (in all its variant forms) as a linguistic force that binds the many disparate migrant Hokkien-speaking (not necessarily Hokkien descent) Chinese communities in the 南洋 Lam-Ioⁿ region together, giving us an identity. The idea that Hokkien speakers from, say, Penang, Klang, Medan, Singapore and Manila, can sit together and communicate in a form of Chinese other than Mandarin, and what more with each speaking their own subtly-unique flavour of Hokkien - that's exciting!

It now gives me a sense of relief that auxiliary words are used regularly in speech in some Hokkien-speaking communities. Judging from your Romanisation, di for and tsua for suggest to me that you speak the 泉州 Cuan-Ciu sub-dialect - would that be correct?
amhoanna
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Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by amhoanna »

However, this is how I would say for the following phrases:
關於 = kuan yi
而且 = di ch'ia
肯 = k'eng
礦泉水 = k'ong tsua tsui
Same as in TW. 且 and 泉 have nasal vowels. 而且 and 肯 are kind of semi-literary; 関於 would only be used in a certain kind of official context, where somebody is reading off of a government announcement, etc.

I think Phils Hoklo might generally be more formal than what's spoken elsewhere. From what I've seen online, Phils Hoklo preserves a formal spoken register which is at the same time different from what we find in Modern Standard Chinese. This might have something to do with the kinds of people that went to Luzon and beyond. Hokkiens who sailed for the Phils were generally richer, better connected, and better educated than Hokkiens that went anywhere else, esp. Taiwan. Now, I could be wrong about any or all of this. :mrgreen:

In TW, instead of 関於, people might "Ahnā XXX--ho͘ⁿ,..."

関於飲食的問題,... = Ahnā cia̍hsi̍t (食食) ê 問題--ho͘ⁿ,...

Instead of 而且, people might say "koh ū" (like Ah-bin suggested), "koh lâi", "ah lâi", "ah", "kohcài kóng", etc., and besides "ah", any of these might be followed by "--ho͘ⁿ".

肯 khéng is fairly colloquial as-is. In TW it mostly seems to occur as part of "m̄ khéng". In some situations people might say kam 甘 or kamgoān 甘願 instead, in other places people would use "bô beh / bô ài" structures.
To be fair, Cantonese has this characteristic to a certain extent, too. The phrase 不然 is non-existent in Cantonese speech, resorting to the rather round-about and wordy 如果唔係 yû-kúo m-hâi (in this instance, Hokkien actually does better - 若無 nâ-bó).
In TW Hoklo, 不然 can be translated as a citation-tone 無 bô, e.g. "無汝去食屎--lah" = 不然你去吃屎啦.

In more than one Cantonese learning book bought in Canton, I've seen "唔係" used exactly the same way as 不然 or Hoklo 無, w/o the 如果. I'm surprised Klang Valley Cantonese doesn't work the same way. I always thought Nusantara Cantonese and Canton Cantonese were pretty similar.
借歪 cĒ-mÉ
Cool phrase. I learned it in my books, but I've almost never heard anybody say it. Seems like people just say 唔該 when they're bulling their way off a crowded subway train.

Wonder what's the punji for mé? :mrgreen:
I am working on translating lyrics, and it appears that besides 吼 we don't have any other commonly known words for 'cry' - 哭, 泣.
What about khàu?
This is one major problem too that obstructs Hokkien from truly becoming a written language. Poetry is nearly impossible, as colloquialism allows for only simple wordings - not to mention rhyming.
Objection, Your Honor. This is far from true. Haven't U been to the market and heard the vendors spitting rhythmic, rhyming verse on the virtues of their product? If there's none left in Penang, U best fly Air Asia to Taiwan and have a listen. Or U can click around and read some good writers. I recommend 陳雷. U can read some of his stuff online at http://taigi.fhl.net/Tanlui/old.html. Better yet, get ahold of his novel 鄉史補記...

Not to mention that Malay and Hokkien mesh pretty well in verse. I think there's a rapper in Medan who does just this.

U can look for excuses to go back to your Mandarin and your Chinese classics, or U can stay on it and learn just how rich colloquial Hokkien can be.
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