Can we import three of the kids, and plant one each in Penang, KL and Singapore for a three (3) year period to fast-track Hokkien-speaking there?
On a more serious note. This episode of yours is interesting because it would reinforce the two extremes (and I suppose Ah-bin and aokh1979 would have experienced the same): On the one end, you get a broad spread of Hokkien speakers in communities such as Penang, Kelantan, Bagan, Medan, the Philippines, but (and here, I speak for Penang only, having not yet visited the other localities) the lexical and grammatical standards are generally limited and dwindling, with a lot of intrusion from other languagues. On the other end, the number of young people speaking perfect Hoklo in Mainland China is already extremely rare, but when they do, they do it very well, and oh-so-much purer than their 南洋 Lam-Ioⁿ counterparts.
BTW, amhoanna - True to my crap phonological standards (which is my way of saying it is no fault of yours!), I had to do a triple-quadruple take in reading your Peh-Oe-Ji. Here are some examples:
1. in (the contraction of 伊儂 i-lang) is not commonly used in North Malayan states
2. The 護 in 護照 is pronounced hO by the 漳州 Ciang Ciu speakers.
3. Boé--á - Umm... what's this one?
4. ciūⁿ - Presume you mean 上? Lovely word. Took me three reads to figure it out. I wish it was used more often in Penang, since 下 is so much more common. If so, I am guessing it would come out as ciOⁿ. Remind me to buy a lottery ticket if any of you ever hears a Penang kid saying 上網 ciOⁿ bang and not receive incredulous looks from his mates.
5. huiki - This I figured out straightaway because of the context of the sentence.
Again, no discredit to your Romanisation -you had everything down pat. Besides, you stated upfront that they spoke 泉州 Coan-Ciu. Ah-bin was right when he told me that the Occidental style of reading silently will fall flat when reading Chinese - and I have found this to be certainly so when reading Peh-Oe-Ji!
You know, I sometimes have little fantasies about a secret society spread across the 南洋 Lam-Ioⁿ, where all the members wore black Mandarin suits at meetings, carried an identification seal (no different from the 19ᵗʰ century 義興公司 Ghee Hin Kongsi secret society's), did no modern electronic correspondences (to avoid detection), wrote only in Literary Chinese (to baffle anyone intercepting their letters), and - here's the puncher - communicated to each other only in Hokkien (廈門 Amoy, 漳州 Ciang-Ciu, 泉州 Coan Ciu... whatever). Now, if all of us could congregate like that someday, would that not be something...
Hokkien-Only Policy
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
Nice idea, can we get 反燕復閩 tattooed on our feet too?
I'm guessing the reason why the boy speaks such good Hokkien is probably because he learnt it from his mother, so he has picked up the good habits of her generation in isolation from PRC Hokkien speakers.
As for most of the people in China in their 30's, even though they can speak Hokkien without putting foreign words in, the lexicon and grammar of what they can speak are already extremely Mandarinised. I remember asking some basic words to some people in Amoy that Aokh introduced me to, and they said that only old people used the words, and told me that they now said so-and-so, which was the same word in Mandarin just pronounced according to Hokkien. I just wish I could remember the examples.
So it was "pure" in that there were no Mandarin phonological borrowings in it, but it was still full of Mandarin-pronounced-as-Hokkien like 飛機 hui-ki where Southeast Asian Hokkien speakers preserve (not all of them, unfortunately) 飛船 pe-chûn.
I'm guessing the reason why the boy speaks such good Hokkien is probably because he learnt it from his mother, so he has picked up the good habits of her generation in isolation from PRC Hokkien speakers.
As for most of the people in China in their 30's, even though they can speak Hokkien without putting foreign words in, the lexicon and grammar of what they can speak are already extremely Mandarinised. I remember asking some basic words to some people in Amoy that Aokh introduced me to, and they said that only old people used the words, and told me that they now said so-and-so, which was the same word in Mandarin just pronounced according to Hokkien. I just wish I could remember the examples.
So it was "pure" in that there were no Mandarin phonological borrowings in it, but it was still full of Mandarin-pronounced-as-Hokkien like 飛機 hui-ki where Southeast Asian Hokkien speakers preserve (not all of them, unfortunately) 飛船 pe-chûn.
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
I still hear 飛船 puē-tsûn in Penang. Though I myself have been accustomed to saying 飛機 puē-ki already. I am writing a Hokkien play for Penang, most likely will be staged by end Nov or early next year. What I will do for the ticket sales is run a simple promotion to give out free to good Hokkien speakers. I will post like 20 questions about words USED in Penang but most likely forgotten by younger generation.
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
Possible... I don't think I see this, though.On the one end, you get a broad spread of Hokkien speakers in communities such as Penang, Kelantan, Bagan, Medan, the Philippines, but (and here, I speak for Penang only, having not yet visited the other localities) the lexical and grammatical standards are generally limited and dwindling, with a lot of intrusion from other languagues. On the other end, the number of young people speaking perfect Hoklo in Mainland China is already extremely rare, but when they do, they do it very well, and oh-so-much purer than their 南洋 Lam-Ioⁿ counterparts.
Not so fast. Do we really know what goes on in the Hoklo countryside? We talk about Amoy a lot on this forum, but Amoy doesn't represent the rest of Banlam. Not by a long shot!As for most of the people in China in their 30's, even though they can speak Hokkien without putting foreign words in, the lexicon and grammar of what they can speak are already extremely Mandarinised.
I've found that Soàⁿboé / Háihong Hoklo is pretty Mandarinized. Lâm'ò (island outside Swatow) Hokkien is pretty Mandarinized. And Chonglâm Hokkien is very Mandarinized. In these cases, Mandarinization may've occurred indirectly, partly as a result of levelling btw two to four non-Mandarin languages.
But Banlam outside of Amoy? Let's not assume it's just one big Amoy or Soàⁿboé. Let's get it first-hand, fellas. Now I don't know much about Coanciu Hoklo. When I come across it, I have a hard enough time as it is trying to understand what they're saying and hold up my end of the dialog as well as just enjoy what I find to be one of the world's most beautiful languages, Coanciu Hoklo. But my impression from last night was that the kid and his mother were using words and structures that might be considered "old folks' Hoklo" or "country Hoklo" in a Taiwanese city.
Sūnsoà kóng--cē (ci̍t'ē), he lāubú mā saⁿca̍pgoā hoè niā'ā, hoānsè saⁿ'āsì-gō͘ hoè khatau. M̄ thang bēkì, in toà tī Huili̍ppin Ongpin (siaⁿtiāu bô kài khaktēng), a.k.a. Binondo. In '07 I went into the Seattle Café on Gandara in Binondo. The whole place was middle-aged ladies speaking Hoklo. Then I went to an internet cafe. The whole place was 13-year-olds speaking Hoklo w/o much code-switching, as far as I could make it out.
I think this is pan-Hoklo. U didn't see my raised dot? What do U guys think looks better:2. The 護 in 護照 is pronounced hO by the 漳州 Ciang Ciu speakers.
hō·ciàu
OR
hō͘ciàu
Same as lo̍hboé 落尾 or lō·boé 路尾. I'm guessing lō·boé is actually just 落尾, but comes out of a dialect that merges o to o·. These exist on TW. I'm guessing a Chonglâm speaker would say coè'aū 最後.3. Boé--á - Umm... what's this one?
This is actually a Chonglamism, or Amoyism. The TWese word is huilêngki (飛行機?), a Jap loanword. Compare with Korean pirengki (or something like that). Actually, this week 中山路 (Nakayama Street ) in Amoy is hosting the biggest "Taiwanese night-market food fair" in Chinese history, with vendors, ingredients, and equipment all flown in directly from Taiwan. On opening night, I recall one of the vendors yelling out to the crowd, "... lóng sī cē huilêngki koè--lâi ê o·, goân ciap goân bī--ê!"5. huiki - This I figured out straightaway because of the context of the sentence.
Personally I prefer 飛船 poecûn!
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
Oops, sorry. Thought that dot was one of many specks of 塗粉 thO-hun on my filthy laptop screen. Seriously. In response to your question - the first one looks better. The less-cognizant readers will know where the two syllables split. And I like clarity.amhoanna wrote:
I think this is pan-Hoklo. U didn't see my raised dot? What do U guys think looks better:
hō·ciàu
OR
hō͘ciàu
Actually, that leads me to another one - hO-ciau or hO-cio? (Okay, I can just see the rotten tomatoes being hurled in my direction for that obtuse question!) I know it's 照做 ciau-co but 照鏡 cio-kiaⁿ. Is it then a 讀册音/講話音 separation, or a contextual one? And I guess 福星高照 would be hOk-seng-ko-ciau, then?
I have heard it before, but only from one speaker (who should be in her early 30's at this moment).aokh1979 wrote:
I still hear 飛船 puē-tsûn in Penang.
Another weird version I have heard (again from only one speaker, but a terribly unreliable one, if you ask me!) is puē-toh55 (high-level tone). Anyone heard of that one?
Got it. I guess the Penang colloquial version is kia(u)-boe (which I suspect is a highly-contracted version of 去到後尾 khi-kau-au-boe). Reminds me of the crude term used in Penang - khiong-ke (which I was told is a contraction and tail-weakening of 去與儂姦 khi-hO-lang-kan! )amhoanna wrote:
Same as lo̍hboé 落尾 or lō·boé 路尾.
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
Maybe in Amoy! And we'll all pretend to only speak Hoklo.Now, if all of us could congregate like that someday, would that not be something...
On to my Amoy field report. First, my M.O.:
1) Hoklo as default language.
2) Refused to switch to Mandarin with anybody I knew or believed to be a Hoklophone, with one exception.
3) Sometimes pretended to understand, but not speak, Mandarin.
4) Sometimes pretended to neither speak nor understand Mandarin.
5) Generally switched to Mandarin with people who couldn't speak Hoklo AND could be assumed to be making less than about 2500 a month, unless I'd already decided to pretend to be Mandarin-incapable.
6) Assumed everybody spoke Hoklo even if they didn't look it.
7) Allowed myself to be switched to English as part of my no-Mandarin persona. Few takers.
Allowed myself to be switched to Mandarin during certain "crucial interactions", such as getting a haircut. Mostly this was b/c I'm not a complete speaker myself -- there are lots of things I don't know how to say in Hoklo "the way a native speaker would say it", and sometimes I'm just in no position to fight the good fight, 反燕復閩 HAHAHA...
My findings:
1) Small business owners tend to speak Hoklo.
2) People over 50 tend to speak Hoklo. Most in-migrants seem to be younger than 50, or else they came from close-in places like Po·chân or central Hokkian in a day and age when Amoy was "all Hoklo all the time". Don't laugh. According to Lîm Kiànhui, that's how it was right into the early '90s.
3) Much of the Hoklo U here in Amoy is spoken by people from other parts of Banlam. They may even live outside of Amoy, in Ciangciu esp. Much of the Hoklo heard in Amoy is not what scholars call Amoy Hokkien / Amoy Banlamese. We also have to remember that there've been different dialects in Amoy since the 19th cen.
4) People under college age may tend to understand, if not speak, Hoklo. This is my conjecture. Some are migrants' kids, but most are probably from local family. The youngest person to speak Hoklo to me was high school age. This was on the BRT. The bus was packed to the gills. I bulled my way on there airport-bound with two bags and a big suitcase. Kind of selfish, I guess. There was a young family behind me speaking Hoklo with a Ciangciu accent. When they wanted to get off, there was no getting off -- the train was too packed. The man said good-naturedly, "Chuqu yixia ma, chuqu yixia zai shanglai. You ren yao xiache." The kids in the doorway just stood there. I was standing next to them so I yelled, "Āupiah ū lâng beh lo̍hchia--lah! You ren yao xiache la!" No effect, so the family had to just bull their way out. A few stops later, it was my turn. As soon as the doors started to open, I grabbed my suitcase and started bulling my way out, saying, "Ciohkoè, ciohkoè!" And to my surprise the kid who was in my way said, "Hó, hó, hó!"
5) There are young people around 20 or so speaking Hoklo in Amoy. In every case, based on their appearance and the fact that they were speaking Hoklo, my guess was that they came from Ciangciu or Coanciu.
6) Amoyans and Banlamese in general are very sensitive to badly spoken Hoklo. They usually switched me to Mandarin straight away if they caught me stuttering or speaking non-native Hoklo. I could usually switch them back by speaking good Hoklo, but not if they were under 30. This is close kin to my Taiwan experience.
7) Hoklophones in Amoy could understand my Mainstream Taiwanese w/o problems. The first day or so, sometimes I would switch to Amoy Taiwanese pronunciations, but this actually caused problems, I think b/c it slowed me down and wrecked my flow -- by Hoklo standards. Rhythm is a key, or THE key, to cross-dialect Hoklo communication. In Cantonese, U can pause mid-sentence, but in Banlam and Taiwan, thou shalt not pause nor err by a millisecond in the timing of your stops and your vowels, etc. My best bet was to speak the dialect I speak most and speak best.
Attitude is everything.
9) Non-Hoklophone in-migrants like to pretend that they can use their "Mandophone ear" to make out things being said in Hoklo. For example, I told the tea thâukeniû, "Mài lām thn̂g, mài pengkak." (The second half may actually be a MY/SG-only usage.) She said, "Shenme? Ni yao binggan?"
10) White-collar workers tend to be Hoklophobic. I went into a bank -- Ē·mûi gînhâng, no less -- to open an account. The security guard / front desk guy didn't speak Hoklo. I pretended to only partially understand Mandarin, maybe to the extent I'd understand Hakka in real life. At times he communicated with me using hanji. The tellers both spoke Hoklo. A 45-ish lady teller opened my account -- hō·thâu, not kháucō . She was so hardwired to speak Mandarin that she would say everything to me in Mandarin first, then repeat herself in Hoklo. I would pretend to partly comprehend the Mandarin part. I think maybe she thought the whole thing was either a test or a jest.
11) By assuming that everybody spoke Hoklo unless proven otherwise, I actually "discovered" Hoklophones I would've guessed weren't, from the looks of them or their station in Amoy life.
12) There's a lot of Amoy/Banlamese vocabulary I don't understand. This mystified me, but now that I think of it, Hoklo conversations in TW tend to be full of references to TWese places and faces. W/o that local knowledge, it's easy to underestimate our comprehension of the language.
13) Amoy is a lot like Singapore, in several ways! Amoy also has the benefit of a stunning physical setting. But the whole place seems to've given itself over to a laid-back, materialistic me-tooism, an Amoy version of the New China dream, light years away from the pride and fury of Canton.
14) At the airport, there were connections to places like Jakarta, Singapore, Manila, etc. See a pattern? Int'l flights, but not domestic flights, were announced in Hoklo alongside Mandarin and English.
More later if I think of anything else.
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Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
I thought I was the only one having difficulties in reading POJ! (Though it might be because of my slow interpretation. Retarded? LOL.) Like for in, I need to translate: In -> 亻因 -> 伊人. Though it might also be because Penang never uses this contraction.Mark Yong wrote: BTW, amhoanna - True to my crap phonological standards (which is my way of saying it is no fault of yours!), I had to do a triple-quadruple take in reading your Peh-Oe-Ji.
That was why I never liked POJ. Wonder how the Vietnamese live... 0_o?? Haha.
I have had such fantasies too, though I would rather us to wear Hanhok 漢服. >.<You know, I sometimes have little fantasies about a secret society spread across the 南洋 Lam-Ioⁿ, where all the members wore black Mandarin suits at meetings, carried an identification seal (no different from the 19ᵗʰ century 義興公司 Ghee Hin Kongsi secret society's), did no modern electronic correspondences (to avoid detection), wrote only in Literary Chinese (to baffle anyone intercepting their letters), and - here's the puncher - communicated to each other only in Hokkien (廈門 Amoy, 漳州 Ciang-Ciu, 泉州 Coan Ciu... whatever). Now, if all of us could congregate like that someday, would that not be something...
We actually say khiongkan. (And I admit I have been searching for the punji of khiong to no avail.. 強? Wrong consonant..) So now I know....Mark Yong wrote:Reminds me of the crude term used in Penang - khiong-ke (which I was told is a contraction and tail-weakening of 去與儂姦 khi-hO-lang-kan! )
Strange thing about my friends. They seem very delighted to know the punji of many crude words. According to my friend, it is because they never knew crude words can be written in Hanji. And when they realise that it is very possible, especially some times the different combinations of Hanji are capable of meaning the same thing, it makes them feel more intimate(?) to Hanji and to the Chinese culture in general. It makes them RESPECT Hokkien as a language, and not just a script-less dialect.
Unfortunately though, it only attracts their attention when I am explaining the punji of crude words.
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
Wow, glad to know about those Hokkien speaking youngsters!
I prefer the first one too. About ciàu & ciò, I think of ciò as having the literal meaning (照鏡, 照光) while ciàu for both 讀册音 and allegorical meaning (照做, 照顧, 護照).amhoanna wrote: hō·ciàu
OR
hō͘ciàu
I tend to "visualize" 路尾 as the end of an allegorical road.Same as lo̍hboé 落尾 or lō·boé 路尾. I'm guessing lō·boé is actually just 落尾, but comes out of a dialect that merges o to o·.
I heard of this too. Is it 飛龍機? I only know of 飛船 in this forum, but so far never heard of it in direct conversation or tv programs. In Bâ-gán-uē we say 飛機 pe•-ki... too mandarinized?The TWese word is huilêngki (飛行機?), a Jap loanword.
I used to feel uncomfortable talking to non-Baganese in Hokkien too, especially Medanese, because they always had difficulties in understanding what I was speaking. Many said Bâ-gán-uē sounds too heavy (tāng, referring to lower pitch). Some Bagan-lang know Medan-ua, so they switch to it when talking to Medan-lang. I don't know much (and not good in imitating their tones), so I only switch certain words I know when talking to them. But I have "bad habit" of auto-switch to Indonesian when I meet them. Nowadays I try to be more patient when someone cannot understand my Hokkien, especially motivated by you guys' persistence!amhoanna wrote: 6) Amoyans and Banlamese in general are very sensitive to badly spoken Hoklo. They usually switched me to Mandarin straight away if they caught me stuttering or speaking non-native Hoklo. I could usually switch them back by speaking good Hoklo, but not if they were under 30. This is close kin to my Taiwan experience.
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
I don't think POJ could be hard for someone with your IQ and talent for languages.I thought I was the only one having difficulties in reading POJ! (Though it might be because of my slow interpretation. Retarded? LOL.) Like for in, I need to translate: In -> 亻因 -> 伊人. Though it might also be because Penang never uses this contraction.
As for 亻因 -> 伊人, that's just a dialect difference. It would show up in hanji too.
Why not wonder about Thais and Laos too? They spell their monosyllables too.That was why I never liked POJ. Wonder how the Vietnamese live... 0_o?? Haha.
I don't think POJ is ideal either. The fact remains that it's the only real writing system Hoklo's ever had. U wanna create a better one and spread it around, go ahead. Might wanna work on your Hokkien too, while U're at it.
Re: Hokkien-Only Policy
I have only had two short encounters with Medan Hokkien, and the longest one was only for ten minutes. It was an elderly couple queuing up ahead of me at the Sydney Airport Customs in October 2008. Initially, I thought they were from Penang, judging from their accent and word usage. But when we got talking, they revealed that they were from Medan. That is how I discovered that Medan Hokkien is very similar to Penang Hokkien, i.e. predominantly of the 漳州 Ciang Ciu strain, and highly ‘musical’.niuc wrote:
I used to feel uncomfortable talking to non-Baganese in Hokkien too, especially Medanese, because they always had difficulties in understanding what I was speaking.
So, I guess the migratory pattern of the Hokkien's to Sumatra was basically 漳州 Ciang Ciu to Medan and 泉州 Coan Ciu to Bagansiapiapi? Are there other localities with significant Hokkien communities?