Hokkien-Only Policy

[niuc]

So, I guess the migratory pattern of the Hokkien's to Sumatra was basically 漳州 Ciang Ciu to Medan and 泉州 Coan Ciu to Bagansiapiapi? Are there other localities with significant Hokkien communities?

I read somewhere (sorry, I often forget the sources) that Penang is also a mixture of Cuanciu & Ciangciu but in the reverse way of Amoy. Not sure how true it is. Anyway, it is true and kind of neat that Hokkien in northern part of Sumatra is basically the same as northern part of Semenanjung Malaysia; while the eastern part of Sumatra (Riau) has the same latitute as southern part of SM and share a more Cuanciu type variants.

From Cuanciu to Ciangciu, I think the differences form a continuum. Bagan Hokkien is basically from Tâng-uaⁿ 同安 that has many Cuanciu vowels but tonal wise much closer to Amoy. So it is between Cuanciu and Amoy, while Amoy is between Cuanciu and Ciangciu, and so on. Pulau Halang near Bagansiapiapi has mainly 晉江 Cìn-kang variant, while Sinaboi 金門 variant. Selat Panjang has 安溪 variant. Chinese in Bintan, Batam and Pontianak mainly speak Teochew; Singkawang and Bangka mainly speak Hakka. Palembang has some "pure" Ciangciu Hokkien, e.g. pronuncing 魚 as hî instead of hû. But in order to foster unity among Chinese in Palembang, they usually speak Mandarin.

[amhoanna]

I prefer the first one too. About ciàu & ciò, I think of ciò as having the literal meaning (照鏡, 照光) while ciàu for both 讀册音 and allegorical meaning (照做, 照顧, 護照).

Same here. Ciò is a word that confuses me, though. In TW some people say chiō in some contexts. Not sure if there's an etymological relation. Do any of U guys also use chiō (e.g. goe̍hkng chiō--ji̍plâi)? Is there a distinction vs ciò?

I tend to "visualize" 路尾 as the end of an allegorical road.

Yes!

I heard of this too. Is it 飛龍機? I only know of 飛船 in this forum, but so far never heard of it in direct conversation or tv programs. In Bâ-gán-uē we say 飛機 pe•-ki... too mandarinized?

Interesting. I think in the Phils it's also 飛機, but huiki, like in Amoy. No, I don't think lêng is 龍. We'll have to wait for one of our Japanese or Korean speakers to weigh in.

pe•-ki... Is that an open e? Or is it the central vowel?

This word is pretty widespread... Even VNese has phicơ, which is an exact cognate, although they have another word they use more often (mâybầy?...not sure about the tones).

Initially, I thought they were from Penang, judging from their accent and word usage.

Amazing. Shows how close the two are.

So, I guess the migratory pattern of the Hokkien's to Sumatra was basically 漳州 Ciang Ciu to Medan and 泉州 Coan Ciu to Bagansiapiapi?

I believe -- and there's plenty of evidence to back this up -- that the much of the equatorial Hoklo dialects -- "Penang Hokkien" most of all -- were formed and forged right on site, down by the equator. If Penang/Medan Hokkien were really just one-offs of Ciangciu Hokkien, they'd be a lot more similar to Gilan and "inner plains" dialects of Taiwan... Now, I'm no true historian, but it seems that Penang used to be the hub of an economic sphere that extended to Taipeng, Medan, and the west coast of southern Siam at least as far north as Phuket and most likely (I'm guessing) up into what is today Myanmar! And this is how languages change and develop: around a center of business and power.

I think Penang's "economic sphere of influence" held strong deep into the 20th century, till it was broken down by nationalist movements in the "post-colonial" era. There's several papers talking about this in a Trang (Siam) context. I mean, until the mid-20th century, Hokkiens ran much of the Trang economy, and they sent their cútē to Penang to get their schooling! Things changed fast in the "national era" and soon the cútē were getting sent to Thàikiaⁿ 泰京 instead.

The Myanmar aspect could potentially be the most fascinating. I'd bet that they're still speaking some kind of archaic Penang Hokkien up in that tail of Myanmar.

In the case of Bagan, I recall Niuc saying that the Hokkiens of Bagan arrived not direct from Tang'oann, but via Singgora (Songkhla)!

All this action took place outside the matrix of "China". And I guess this is why Penang Hokkien and other 过鹹水 dialects, except Formosan ones, hold zero interest for run-of-the-mill China-based "topolectologists", the 俗称 "dialectologists".

Pulau Halang near Bagansiapiapi has mainly 晉江 Cìn-kang variant, while Sinaboi 金門 variant. Selat Panjang has 安溪 variant. Chinese in Bintan, Batam and Pontianak mainly speak Teochew; Singkawang and Bangka mainly speak Hakka. Palembang has some "pure" Ciangciu Hokkien, e.g. pronuncing 魚 as hî instead of hû. But in order to foster unity among Chinese in Palembang, they usually speak Mandarin.

Very interesting to know all this. I've always been fascinated by Palembang, or the idea of it. What do U call it in Sumatran Hokkien? Kūkáng? Kīkáng? Sorry to hear about the Mandarin thing. I guess when I go there I'll just stick with the hoanná crowd, there's probably a lot more of them anyway.

[Ah-bin]

The Myanmar aspect could potentially be the most fascinating. I'd bet that they're still speaking some kind of archaic Penang Hokkien up in that tail of Myanmar.

I started a thread on this a while ago, as I met a Hokkien speaker from Burma (the Burmese here don't like the name Myanmar), and two weeks ago I got a lead on where she was.....but she had moved to Sydney! I remember she could understand what I was saying in my limited Taiwanese of the time (2005), and I think she said mui for 門. I am getting more curious as time goes on. I remember in an ostensibly Cambodian-run bakery in Auckland that the older people could understand the things I was saying in Taiwanese, I think there must be more of these people around passing as "Burmese", even in Canberra, I just need to dig around for them.

[amhoanna]

Ostensibly Cambodian run? Maybe Teochew, then?

Why don't the Burmese like the name Myanmar? I don't know the history. BTW what do they think about their "frontier minorities"? Do they think of the Shan, Karen, etc. as being intrinsically "Burmese"? Do they care?

I'd like to know a lot more about "Burmese Hoklo". I met a Hokkien lady once who left Burma around the age of 12 or 13. After twenty yrs of living in the U.S., she'd managed to forget all her Hokkien and almost all of her Burmese. I would think this was humanly impossible if I hadn't met such a real live example myself.

Back to the topic of this thread. I've resolved to tiánkhui a "Hokkien Also" policy during the rest of my stay here in Luzon. Outside of Binondo, the Luzon environment kind of triggers my "North American" responses. Also I feel kind of guilty on some level b/c I haven't made any real effort to learn the bumi languages here. I would like to. I meet obvious Chinese about once a day. All of them own things, and all things are owned by them. I can see them looking at me wondering if I'm Tsinoy or Korean. I always talk to them in English, but, hey, why not Hoklo? The chances of any random Tsinoy not having a Hoklophone heritage are slim to none. If I have anything to report, I'll set up a field report thread.

[SimL]

I'd like to know a lot more about "Burmese Hoklo". I met a Hokkien lady once who left Burma around the age of 12 or 13. After twenty yrs of living in the U.S., she'd managed to forget all her Hokkien and almost all of her Burmese. I would think this was humanly impossible if I hadn't met such a real live example myself.

When I was doing my "Family History Project", I learnt that my grandfather had spent some time in Burma in his youth. He was born in 1900, left China in his mid to late teens, and was probably fully settled in Malay(si)a by 1930. So, we believe that he spent some time between 1915 and 1930 in Burma.

Now speaking Mandarin was not that common among Hokkiens in that period, and he would have been unlikely to have communicated in English with the Chinese in Burma (he spoke English, but only at a very basic level). He most certainly wouldn't have communicated with them in Burmese. So, that leaves the very obvious possibility that many of the Chinese he came into contact with would have been Hokkien speakers, and he would simply have spoken Hokkien to them. Indeed, this might very well have been the reason for him to have gone to Burma (rather than India or Ceylon or Vietnam) - precisely because there was a core community of Hokkien speakers, with whom he could communicate.

He died in the early 1970's, and nobody had thought to ask him about more details regarding his stay in Burma. So we don't know anything more about this part of his life, other than that he did go there.

[AndrewAndrew]

It's perhaps useful to point out the places that have been commemorated in road names in Penang:

Burmah, Mandalay, Rangoon, Moulmein, Tavoy, Irrawaddy, Siam, Patani, Trang, Bangkok

While most of these names reflect Burmese and Siamese communities living in Penang (rather than Hokkiens living in Burma/Siam), it shows how much interaction there was in those days.

[Ah-bin]

Why don't the Burmese like the name Myanmar? I don't know the history. BTW what do they think about their "frontier minorities"? Do they think of the Shan, Karen, etc. as being intrinsically "Burmese"? Do they care?

It's because the regime that is responsible for them being refugees here is the same one that promotes the name of the country as "Myanmar". "Kampuchea" was a similar name. Cambodians who weren't so keen on Pol Pot and his cronies refused to use it. Just like most of the Vietnamese who live here never refer to Saigon as Ho Chi Minh City, onlt Saigon. I'll bet Myanmar and Ho Chi Minh will only last as long as their regimes.

The reason why they say Myanmar is because "Burma" supposedly refers just to the Burmese ethnic group and doesn't include non-Burmese (actually it's just a slightly different pronunciation of the same word). The current regime in Burma isn't exactly known for its accommodating stance towards its ethnic minorities, so I always found it amusing that they decided to get all sensitive about names.

Kind of like Chinese isn't it? Tibetans are supposed to be Chinese, but Chinese language means 漢語 and excludes Tibetan. Overseas Chinese are supposed to be 華人 (translated as "Chinese"), and Miao people are supposed to be part of the 中華民族 (also "Chinese"), but Hmong people who have lived over in Laos or Thailand for only 150 years (some moved there more recently than the ancestors of many 華人 in other countries) and speak the same language as the Miao in China are not 華人， 華僑, or 中華民族 "Chinese".

The only way I can think of to escape my confusion on this matter is to ban myself from ever thinking about or discussing it again， and if I do I'll send myself to a labour camp. Ahhhh that's better! I feel harmonious now......

[aokh1979]

The similar issue has sort of bothered a friend of mine in China.

She was born and raised in the Korean Autonomous Region in China, to a Korean-speaking family, of course. They're part of the 56 ethnic groups of People's Republic of China. Her great-great-grandparents moved to China from South Korea about 150 years ago.

So now, she's a Korean-Chinese. And IF, she migrates to US, will she be a Chinese-American or Korean-American ? She has no Han blood, her entire family is of Korean descend. She says she will be, and wants to be called Korean-American.

[Ah-bin]

I'm sorry your friend has to put up with that Aokh. I'm kind of glad you have an example though, because I feel as if I am mad sometimes.

I've been thinking about it for a long time and reading PRC publications about nationalities, and comparing them with what I see and hear I find that and many many people just don't fit into the categories, or ethnic groups are split across borders.

I start asking questions....

Q: So did the Chinese invade Korea and steal a bit of their land?

A: Impossible, China is peaceful and never attacked anyone!

Q: So did the Koreans come and occupy a part of China?

A:No, those Koreans are part of the 中華民族!

Q: So why do they speak the same language as the people over the border in North Korea?　

A: You ask too many questions.

There are "Jing" (Kinh = Vietnamese) on an island suspiciously close to the Chinese border with Vietnam too. I read in a (Chinese) book that they have ALWAYS been Chinese. Then there was a border stone of the old Vietnamese border I went to with a group of academics (not the border any more) and an explanation in Chinese that the people who took us there forbade us to take photographs of.

I find it so strange to constantly come up against things like this, because no problems of the sort oficially exist and they must be just a figment of my imagination. Sometimes I wish I just didn't know anything about it so I wouldn't wince every time I hear or read about the "56 ethnic groups".

[amhoanna]

The only way I can think of to escape my confusion on this matter is to ban myself from ever thinking about or discussing it again， and if I do I'll send myself to a labour camp. Ahhhh that's better! I feel harmonious now......

Come on, there's nothing wrong with U. I spent a good part of my late formative years watching sports on TV, including fútbol americano. If someone is wrong -- like the Chinese establishment -- then we, or some other "enemy of my enemy", MUST "take it to the house" on them. Sack their quarterback, force a turnover, steal their women and eat their children. Because they deserve it! And if we can't sack them when they're strong, we'll catch them off guard or sack them when they're weak and sick. And still steal their women and eat their children.

Q: So did the Koreans come and occupy a part of China?

A:No, those Koreans are part of the 中華民族!

MWAHAHAHAHAAA!

Then there was a border stone of the old Vietnamese border I went to with a group of academics (not the border any more) and an explanation in Chinese that the people who took us there forbade us to take photographs of.

Enlightening.

And, U probably know this anyway, but this 中華民族 bullshit didn't start with the PRC. If U talk to a Blue-camp, "5000-year mindset" R.O.C. intellectual -- whose entire upbringing was a waste of Taiwanese rice -- they'll spoonfeed U the exact same bullshit with the same circular reasoning.

What seems to be uniquely PRC is strange silences in the dialog. Once I had lunch near a campus in L.A. with a crew of PRC graduate exchange students who'd just come back from an "anti-Free Tibet" march on campus. I asked them if "China" (read: Han power) was going to use the "roots" argument to justify the occupation of Tibet, then why not invade the Koreas first? Koreans dress like the Han, eat Han-similar food (with chopsticks!), can't open their mouth w/o spitting Han loanwords, worship like the Han, look at least as Han-like as Tibetans do, etc. And Tibet never took a U.S. military base up its ****, but S. Korea has them as we speak. And what did these fiery PRC intellectuals say in response? They just sat around with polite, smug Little Red Book half-smiles and ignored my point.

So now, she's a Korean-Chinese. And IF, she migrates to US, will she be a Chinese-American or Korean-American ? She has no Han blood, her entire family is of Korean descend. She says she will be, and wants to be called Korean-American.

Gotta love it!

Ditto with ethnic Tn̂glâng that move from Malay(si)a to the U.S.

When Koreatown restaurants hire "China" Koreans as waitstaff, they assign them to all the Mandarin-speaking customers that come in the door. The front door staff will ask Asian, non-Korean-speaking customers "what they speak". Guess it feels better than providing service in English.

My observation is there's only two languages in the East Asian part of China whose native speakers consider their language to be "cooler" than Mandarin: Cantonese and Korean. Mark Yong's media explanation still fits the facts.