This time there was almost no field report. I kicked off a "Hoklo Also" policy last week, but didn't run into any more people that looked like they might've been Hoklo speakers. BTW the "algorithm" for this is not quite the same as anywhere else, def. different from Taiwan or Sabah. Details if anyone is interested.
At San Fernando de la Union, I visited the "Ma-cho Temple" (Ma-cho = Mácó· 嬤祖), supposedly the largest "Taoist" temple in the country. I didn't hear anybody speaking Hoklo while I was at the temple. There was much evidence of ties to Taiwan, inc. a record of donations made in the aftermath of cyclone Morakot. Most interesting, on Luzon Mácó· is seen as being one and the same with the Virgin of Caysasay. I'll upload some info on this soon.
The La Union and Pangasinan area has probably had ties to Hokkiàn and Kúiⁿtang since time immemorial. The Hakka (?) pirate 林鳳 Lîm Hōng once made inroads in Lingayen. An animated movie about 林鳳 came out in the Phils a few yrs ago.
Back in Manila. Lots of Hoklo at the mall in Green Hills. No surprise, in a city where Hoklo make up a huge chunk of the upper middle class and the professions. I did hear one 40s-ish lady asking another something in Hoklo.
Binondo is ground zero for Hoklo speakers on Luzon. I decided not to re-visit Binondo b/c I had lots of errands to run elsewhere and other places to see. Not w/o regrets. The news is good coming out of Binondo. Property values continue to be very "strong" there. Revitalization of the district is already under way.
BTW I asked the lady from Lâm'oaⁿ from the pơcûn 飛船 if they spoke Hoklo when out and about in daily life. She said they did. I tried to ask her if her native Lâm'oaⁿ Hoklo was different from Binondo Hoklo, and if she had adjusted toward Binondo Hoklo since she started living there, but she didn't get my drift. I said that a lot of the things her son and her said pretty much resembled Luzon Hoklo as I knew it. She said, "Well, of course, my son grew up here, his Hokkien is far from perfect." But of course her son spoke brilliant Hokkien. Is there a "Luzon Hoklo" or "Binondo Hoklo" with a flavor of its own? I'm guessing there is. Maybe Siamiwako can comment on this if he comes by here by and by.
On the last day, on my way to the markets at Divisoria, I stumbled through a section of Tondo which is really an extension of Binondo. An intense Chinatown feel -- U know what I mean. The streets, the office buildings, the apartments, the shops. Probably 30% of the people in the streets were culturally Tsinoy, the rest were Chinese-Spanish-Pinoy mestizos, a.k.a. Pinoys. With visibly less Chinese and European than, say, the folks shopping at Green Hills or Taguig City near Makati. The dominant language was by far Tagalog. (Caveat: I can't tell Tagalog apart from other Phils languages.)
Nearby, in one of the markets at Divisoria -- where I bargained in one shop in Hoklo once a few yrs ago, come to think of it -- I heard one 40s-ish lady say something to another in Hoklo, something about 90 of something (or a price), and how someone wasn't coming anyway, so forget about it. "M̄ bián--lah," she said, but she said it like miang, with a high-level tone. My head spun around to see who was talking. She noticed me noticing her right away.
On the packed light rail, I was surprised to hear a mother-son duo -- teenage son, 40-ish mother -- talking in full Hoklo. They spoke kind of hush-hush, though, I couldn't understand hardly any of it. They were speaking pure Hoklo as far as I could tell -- no code-switching, no words from Tag or Eng as far as I could see. They got off at the stop on the edge of Binondo.
Conclusions and observations so far:
1) There are still people in the Phils who actively speak Hokkien, right down to the kids, poss. even to each other.
2) They pretty much all live in Binondo and the "Binondo spillover" zones. In the rest of Manila, Tsinoys middle-aged and over -- representing a disproportionate section of the business class -- may generally speak Hoklo and even read Chinese, but their kids probably don't, and they themselves probably use Tagalog and English a lot more in their daily lives. In the past, some of them may've also used Spanish and the Manila version of the Chabacano Spanish creole, both of which are dying out on Luzon.
3) Social circles may be pretty closed. The classic Chinatown worldview and mindset, with a Phils twist. The kids go to Chinese schools, where they're joined by lots of mestizo and pure Pinoy kids.
4) These Hokkien speakers are probably economically less well off than the suburban Tsinoys, who seem to identify with English over Tagalog and really don't speak Hokkien anymore. (Sound familiar?)
5) There is not the same "Let's All Speak Mandarin! Yay, Mandarin!" vibe that U get in SG, MY, and even post-Suharto ID, not to mention TW and most of China.
6) Even new businesses seem to choose their names (both Chinese and Anglo/Pinoy) based on Hokkien considerations. For example, a spa called Senses was called 仙詩三温䁔 in hanji.
In closing, the Luzon Hoklo, esp. Binondo Hoklo, give me this feeling of marching to an older beat than the PRC or even the ROC. A 反清復明, 鄭成功, 嬤祖-worshipping consciousness seems to pervade their Chineseness. Their media talks about "Taiwan" issues w/o taking on hysterical, nationalistic tones -- unlike MY/SG. The idea of maritime Hoklo power on "the islands" seems natural to them. When they go to China, they go to Coanciu and Amoy. To them, Coanciu and Amoy IS China.
All the rest will have to stay unsaid for now. I'll leave it to aPin to make his way to the islands and flesh out this field report some more.
Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the field
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
A relevant draft found online, "Influx of New Chinese Immigrants to the Philippines: Problems and Challenges" -- presented by Teresita Ang See in 2004. I think that's the same lady provided the Hokkien translation in the court case this month.
http://192.38.121.218/issco5/documents/AngSeepaper.doc
She quotes a Hokkien sio̍kgí 俗語 in the draft: ' “Tua-kiao po diao diao, Sio-kiao bo chap siao (in Hokkien).” It means that for big-time investors, China can give all the protection needed but for small investors, China would not care less...'
Not sure which "kiau" she's using, kiâu as in chânkiâu'á 田僑囝 BIGTIME LAND OWNER or kiáu as in poa̍hkiáu GAMBLING. Toā kiau2/5 pó tiâutiâu, sió kiau2/5 bô chap siâu."
http://192.38.121.218/issco5/documents/AngSeepaper.doc
She quotes a Hokkien sio̍kgí 俗語 in the draft: ' “Tua-kiao po diao diao, Sio-kiao bo chap siao (in Hokkien).” It means that for big-time investors, China can give all the protection needed but for small investors, China would not care less...'
Not sure which "kiau" she's using, kiâu as in chânkiâu'á 田僑囝 BIGTIME LAND OWNER or kiáu as in poa̍hkiáu GAMBLING. Toā kiau2/5 pó tiâutiâu, sió kiau2/5 bô chap siâu."
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
This is wonderful news. Thank you for writing all of this, I wish I had known about a week ago, when I was writing about the vitality of non-mandarin Chinese in Southeast Asia.
I don't know when I'll get there any time soon, but the whole idea of a Chinatown like that sounds like a Hokkien 世外桃源.
The Philippine Chinese newspapers I read actually did have a bit about the Japanese War and what was going on in China, but very little about the Chinese society of Manila deeper than who was going to which ball wearing which dress. A historian had asked me to look for materials on a particular subject.
I didn't even expect that I would find Hokkien terms in it. otherwise I would have kept an eye out.
I don't know when I'll get there any time soon, but the whole idea of a Chinatown like that sounds like a Hokkien 世外桃源.
The Philippine Chinese newspapers I read actually did have a bit about the Japanese War and what was going on in China, but very little about the Chinese society of Manila deeper than who was going to which ball wearing which dress. A historian had asked me to look for materials on a particular subject.
I didn't even expect that I would find Hokkien terms in it. otherwise I would have kept an eye out.
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
The population of Filipino Chinese are mostly from Fujian province background, hence Min-nan (Lan-nang-oe see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan-nang) dialect is prevalently spoken in Chinese communities. I can't tell the difference between Luzon Lan-nang-oe and Binondo Lan-nang-oe, but I can say that from memory, metro area has some words that are not found in other southern provinces due to Tagalog influence from up north**:
Bantay* - Really (e.g. Ke kh'a bantay kui 價錢真貴)
Sauli - Return (e.g. Ch'ia di jiong zuai sauli t'o-i 請你把這些還給他)
Pala - Pay (e.g. Di wu pala beh? 你付錢了沒有?)
Pag - If (e.g. Pag ts'eh bo mi kia 如果沒找到東西)
Din - Also (e.g. Gua buei bo din 我也沒買到)
三寶顏市的咱人話多多少少被Chabacano/西班牙語受影響,因此講法也有區別,列如:
Paga - Pay (e.g. Di wu paga beh?)
Si - If (e.g. Si tseh bo mi kia)
Tamen (Tambien in Spanish) - Also (e.g. Gua buei bo tamen)
*I can't be certain if this is a Min-nan phrase or a Tagalog phrase
**Correct me if I am wrong here, I can't seem to find the correlation between these words with any Min-nan phrases
Due to large number of recent migrants from Fujian province, there's also a need to confirm that fluent speakers (no switching/no mixing of local words) are brought up locally as I believe this group is extremely rare. First generation Filipino Chinese, locally born and raised, will always find hard to get rid of word mixing.
Bantay* - Really (e.g. Ke kh'a bantay kui 價錢真貴)
Sauli - Return (e.g. Ch'ia di jiong zuai sauli t'o-i 請你把這些還給他)
Pala - Pay (e.g. Di wu pala beh? 你付錢了沒有?)
Pag - If (e.g. Pag ts'eh bo mi kia 如果沒找到東西)
Din - Also (e.g. Gua buei bo din 我也沒買到)
三寶顏市的咱人話多多少少被Chabacano/西班牙語受影響,因此講法也有區別,列如:
Paga - Pay (e.g. Di wu paga beh?)
Si - If (e.g. Si tseh bo mi kia)
Tamen (Tambien in Spanish) - Also (e.g. Gua buei bo tamen)
*I can't be certain if this is a Min-nan phrase or a Tagalog phrase
**Correct me if I am wrong here, I can't seem to find the correlation between these words with any Min-nan phrases
Due to large number of recent migrants from Fujian province, there's also a need to confirm that fluent speakers (no switching/no mixing of local words) are brought up locally as I believe this group is extremely rare. First generation Filipino Chinese, locally born and raised, will always find hard to get rid of word mixing.
Last edited by siamiwako on Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
I also strong agree with your 5th conclusion, when people say 華語 it could mean 咱人話/國語*/普通話. No strong despising feeling towards Lan-nang-oe.
*This applies to Chinese education base on Taiwan system taught up to late 90s.
*This applies to Chinese education base on Taiwan system taught up to late 90s.
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
SMWK, that post was a phenomenon. Kì goá só· cai, that is the first time anybody anywhere has put up info about the new aspects of Pinoy Hokkien onto the worldwide web. Did y'all dudes from the Malacca Straits ever imagine Manila Hokkien and Zamboanga Hokkien could be just as far apart as Medan Hokkien and Johor Hokkien?
Using kanji, Hoklo on Luzon "spell out" every last place name on each of the 7,167 Philippine Islands. Not just any kanji literate person can effectively use a Tsinoy map of the Philippines to get around unfamiliar spots in the archipelago unless they got Basic Hoklo under their belt along with their kanji.
As far as they can, the Pinoy Hoklo "spell" out Pinoy place names using kanji people would use to name places back in Banlam. 呂宋 岷里(拉?) 王彬 三寶顏 納卯 仙範 碧瑤 宿霧 將軍. The "New Chinese" of the ROC-PRC and their spinoffs (TW/SG/MY) purposely pick "stiff" kanji that look and sound foreign: 馬尼拉 民答那峨 大堡... The Pinoy Hoklo went to the islands and found a home. The New Chinese only go to the islands on package tours or to wait out some new papers and move to the First World.
Notice again. In spite of the so-called flood of New China folk, all the Sino papers in the streets still be in "vintage kanji". In the week after Manila renamed the South China Sea to "West Philippine Sea" in Pinoy parlance, guess what the Siong Po 商報 was calling that lake? U guessed it. 南海. Not 南中國海, not 中國南海. Ṃ sị Sehái 西海, ṃ sị Saihái 西海, ṃ sị 呂宋海, ṃ sị 內中海.
Sim-e, goá oảnná ụ te' khólụ khoàⁿ kám be' lảikhừ cò giánkiù. aPin íkeng cò giánkiù cò kài kú-a, goá siụⁿ, Pin-e nạ bỏ kín khừ Huilịppin cáu-citcoa, kui ẻ sèkan mạ tiọ' oàn "bỏ chái".
Sim-仒,我還囝有 te' 考慮看咁欲來去做研究。阿 Pin 已経做研究做介久-a,我想,Pin-仒若無緊去菲日濱走-一 逝,規仒世間毋亦着怨無采。
Using kanji, Hoklo on Luzon "spell out" every last place name on each of the 7,167 Philippine Islands. Not just any kanji literate person can effectively use a Tsinoy map of the Philippines to get around unfamiliar spots in the archipelago unless they got Basic Hoklo under their belt along with their kanji.
As far as they can, the Pinoy Hoklo "spell" out Pinoy place names using kanji people would use to name places back in Banlam. 呂宋 岷里(拉?) 王彬 三寶顏 納卯 仙範 碧瑤 宿霧 將軍. The "New Chinese" of the ROC-PRC and their spinoffs (TW/SG/MY) purposely pick "stiff" kanji that look and sound foreign: 馬尼拉 民答那峨 大堡... The Pinoy Hoklo went to the islands and found a home. The New Chinese only go to the islands on package tours or to wait out some new papers and move to the First World.
Notice again. In spite of the so-called flood of New China folk, all the Sino papers in the streets still be in "vintage kanji". In the week after Manila renamed the South China Sea to "West Philippine Sea" in Pinoy parlance, guess what the Siong Po 商報 was calling that lake? U guessed it. 南海. Not 南中國海, not 中國南海. Ṃ sị Sehái 西海, ṃ sị Saihái 西海, ṃ sị 呂宋海, ṃ sị 內中海.
Sim-e, goá oảnná ụ te' khólụ khoàⁿ kám be' lảikhừ cò giánkiù. aPin íkeng cò giánkiù cò kài kú-a, goá siụⁿ, Pin-e nạ bỏ kín khừ Huilịppin cáu-citcoa, kui ẻ sèkan mạ tiọ' oàn "bỏ chái".
Sim-仒,我還囝有 te' 考慮看咁欲來去做研究。阿 Pin 已経做研究做介久-a,我想,Pin-仒若無緊去菲日濱走-一 逝,規仒世間毋亦着怨無采。
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Since we are on the topic of Philippines Hoklo, I should have remembered this...
A few months ago, I posted a new topic on Minnan in the martial arts:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10969
One of the more prominent academies teaching the Sao Lim Ngo Cho Kun (少林五祖拳) or Shaolin Five Ancestors Boxing is actually the 菲律賓中華鳴謙國術社 Philippines Beng Kiam Chinese Martial Arts Academy (http://www.bengkiam.com/Index.aspx), based in Manila. I wonder how much Hokkien they still use, in addition to the names of the various forms and movements.
With all that I have read so far from amhoanna's field reports, the short if it is that it sounds like the Philippines is a near-perfect fossilisation of late 19th century 泉州 Coan Ciu dialect, with even the writing system having suffered minimal intrusion from the onslaught of Modern Standard Chinese (sounds like they insulated themselves even better than Malaysia!). Taking into consideration, of course, that the trade-off is the relatively fewer speakers by headcount. It is interesting that the picture is totally different from the one I got from reading Lynn Pan's The Encyclopaedia of the Chinese Overseas, where the chapter on the Philippines gave me the impression that written Chinese is almost non-existent (there is a black-and-white photo of the swearing-in of the new committee for the Chinese Association, but none of the banners in the background were in Chinese).
A few months ago, I posted a new topic on Minnan in the martial arts:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10969
One of the more prominent academies teaching the Sao Lim Ngo Cho Kun (少林五祖拳) or Shaolin Five Ancestors Boxing is actually the 菲律賓中華鳴謙國術社 Philippines Beng Kiam Chinese Martial Arts Academy (http://www.bengkiam.com/Index.aspx), based in Manila. I wonder how much Hokkien they still use, in addition to the names of the various forms and movements.
With all that I have read so far from amhoanna's field reports, the short if it is that it sounds like the Philippines is a near-perfect fossilisation of late 19th century 泉州 Coan Ciu dialect, with even the writing system having suffered minimal intrusion from the onslaught of Modern Standard Chinese (sounds like they insulated themselves even better than Malaysia!). Taking into consideration, of course, that the trade-off is the relatively fewer speakers by headcount. It is interesting that the picture is totally different from the one I got from reading Lynn Pan's The Encyclopaedia of the Chinese Overseas, where the chapter on the Philippines gave me the impression that written Chinese is almost non-existent (there is a black-and-white photo of the swearing-in of the new committee for the Chinese Association, but none of the banners in the background were in Chinese).
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
When you say "spell", do you mean phonologically spell out the place names or rename the place in Hokkien according to their local meaning?amhoanna wrote: As far as they can, the Pinoy Hoklo "spell" out Pinoy place names using kanji people would use to name places back in Banlam. 呂宋 岷里(拉?) 王彬 三寶顏 納卯 仙範 碧瑤 宿霧 將軍. The "New Chinese" of the ROC-PRC and their spinoffs (TW/SG/MY) purposely pick "stiff" kanji that look and sound foreign: 馬尼拉 民答那峨 大堡... The Pinoy Hoklo went to the islands and found a home. The New Chinese only go to the islands on package tours or to wait out some new papers and move to the First World.
In Penang, there are a lot of renaming too in town area, where Chinese is denser. Like 龍尾 (strange, we don't say lengbui. Its longbui.), 五條路, 七條路 etc. I am quite sure they are not based on Malay names though.
Nonetheless, at places recently developed, we adopt the "stiff" transliteration from Malay. Like Bayan Lepas, Bayan Baru. (We don't even have a commonly known Chinese name for it.)
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Dear Yeleixingfeng:
Because it's not 龍尾......
Paya Terubong is called 壟尾 lióng-bué and the "i" is usually omitted, so it sounds like lóng-bué. In Mandarin, it's lǒng-wěi so you will hear it as lóng-wěi.
Bayan Lepas, Bayan Baru or Batu Maung are all Malay names. There was somehow an English name of Bayan Lepas, I can't remember it.
Because it's not 龍尾......
Paya Terubong is called 壟尾 lióng-bué and the "i" is usually omitted, so it sounds like lóng-bué. In Mandarin, it's lǒng-wěi so you will hear it as lóng-wěi.
Bayan Lepas, Bayan Baru or Batu Maung are all Malay names. There was somehow an English name of Bayan Lepas, I can't remember it.
Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f
Aha! Another example of the elided -i- in syllables with -iong, just like Khí-hiông 起雄, which becomes khí-hông in Penang. I wonder if there are any more examples?Paya Terubong is called 壟尾 lióng-bué and the "i" is usually omitted, so it sounds like lóng-bué. In Mandarin, it's lǒng-wěi so you will hear it as lóng-wěi.