What to Revive?

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: What to Revive?

Post by Mark Yong »

Mark Yong wrote:
Regarding the differences between technical terms in China and Taiwan (yes, that was me being politically-incorrect again)
Ah-bin wrote:
I don't get it, who is this politcally incorrect for? It's just stating fact, I don't think anyone here is going to be offended by it at all.
That was just me being sarcastic, lah. :lol:
Ah-bin
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by Ah-bin »

Oops....I forgot to put a funny face on the end of that last sentence! :lol:
Mark Yong
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by Mark Yong »

Ah-bin wrote:
...and 克隆 (China) 複製 (Taiwan HK) where China couldn't even be bothered to come up with a meaningful term for "clone" and chose an ugly transliteration instead.
Two of my pet peeves from mindlessly-transliterated PRC Chinese:
1. flange (as in the flange of a wheel or pipe) - 法蘭. No kidding, this one I got off an official Systems Requirements Specification document from a client. I thought they were joking, until I verified it via Google Translate. Can't understand why they don't like 輪緣.
2. ice-cream - 冰淇淋. Compare the more elegant Hong Kong version 雪糕.

And then there are the transliterations that are clearly biased towards the Northern pronunciations. My pet hate for this one is 巧克力 for 'chocolate'.
AndrewAndrew
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by AndrewAndrew »

Mark Yong wrote:
Ah-bin wrote:
...and 克隆 (China) 複製 (Taiwan HK) where China couldn't even be bothered to come up with a meaningful term for "clone" and chose an ugly transliteration instead.
Two of my pet peeves from mindlessly-transliterated PRC Chinese:
1. flange (as in the flange of a wheel or pipe) - 法蘭. No kidding, this one I got off an official Systems Requirements Specification document from a client. I thought they were joking, until I verified it via Google Translate. Can't understand why they don't like 輪緣.
2. ice-cream - 冰淇淋. Compare the more elegant Hong Kong version 雪糕.

And then there are the transliterations that are clearly biased towards the Northern pronunciations. My pet hate for this one is 巧克力 for 'chocolate'.
Although PRC has monstrosities such as 因特網, HK also has its own: at least up North one doesn't (officially) say 巴士 or 的士, although 摩托車 seems universal.
Ah-bin
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by Ah-bin »

2. ice-cream - 冰淇淋. Compare the more elegant Hong Kong version 雪糕.
I believe this one is actually a Hokkien transliteration into Mandarin, as it only sounds like "cream" when you say it as "khi-lim", like 沙發, which supposedly works in Shanghai, but nowhere else.
Although PRC has monstrosities such as 因特網, HK also has its own: at least up North one doesn't (officially) say 巴士 or 的士,
因特網 has been replaced by 網羅 I think. As long as I have been to China (since 2008), I've never heard anyone say it. Part of 的士 has got into the ubiquitous 打的 "to take a taxi" I think because 出租汽車 is too long. 計程車 I remember Taiwanese youth slurring into a "ji-eng-che" only two syllables long, and 摩托車 became "muo-che" older Taiwanese who had learnt their Mandarin at school tended to give each syllable its emphasis. I like how some 北佬 manage to make 不知道 into "bú-rào" as well, it's amazing what happens when native speakers start speaking quickly!
Ah-bin
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by Ah-bin »

And then there are the transliterations that are clearly biased towards the Northern pronunciations. My pet hate for this one is 巧克力 for 'chocolate'.
That should be a reminder for everyone about how phonetically limited Mandarin is and how important it is for Hokkien/Hakka/Cantonese etc. families to speak these languages to their children so that they distinguish -m and -n and pronounce -k, -p, and -t in a natural manner when they learn English...which they will no doubt have to. Also its a reminder about how great Hokkien is! Except for f- and r- of course. It's funny, Koreans have the same lack of f- and Hokkien speakers, and they always approximate it with a ph-, but Hokkien speakers go for hw- instead. I remember being rather amused (to myself of course) at hearing a Taiwanese woman talk about "losing hwace"

As for sending children to school in Taiwan, I think it's a great idea, bu7t if you want them to learn English well, one of the parents should start speaking to the children in English. As far as I am aware, the way of teaching English there still doesn't get great results, and that includes most of the extra-curricular cram schools.
AndrewAndrew
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by AndrewAndrew »

Ah-bin wrote:因特網 has been replaced by 網羅 I think. As long as I have been to China (since 2008), I've never heard anyone say it. Part of 的士 has got into the ubiquitous 打的 "to take a taxi" I think because 出租汽車 is too long. 計程車 I remember Taiwanese youth slurring into a "ji-eng-che" only two syllables long, and 摩托車 became "muo-che" older Taiwanese who had learnt their Mandarin at school tended to give each syllable its emphasis. I like how some 北佬 manage to make 不知道 into "bú-rào" as well, it's amazing what happens when native speakers start speaking quickly!
網絡 was more common when I was there (2003), but you did occasionally come across 因特網. To take a taxi was usually 打車.
Mark Yong
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by Mark Yong »

Ah-bin wrote:
I like how some 北佬 manage to make 不知道 into "bú-rào" as well, it's amazing what happens when native speakers start speaking quickly!
I find this point about contraction of words in the North very relevant to Hokkien. And especially so, since the thread topic reads “What to revive?”

‘A brief moment’ is 一目聶仔久 jìt-băk-nî-ā-kû, nowadays contracted to just mă-niā-kû, and in Penang it is often even more heavily-contracted to just măng-kû.

A 北佬 saying bú-rào does not over-ride or invalidate its root components 不知道. In the same way, Hokkien speakers are free to use the contracted forms mă-niā-kû and măng-kû, but that should not allow it to obscure their origins in 一目聶仔久 jìt-băk-nî-ā-kû. It would enrich a Hokkien speaker’s command of his language so much more, if he/she saw the etymological connection between the contracted mă-n(iā)-kû and 聶目 nî-băk ‘to wink one’s eye’.

Even Bodman, who stated quite explicitly in his text that learning spoken Hokkien should not be tied to learning Chinese characters, advocated that students should try as much as possible to recognise the so-called ‘recurring bound forms’ of morphemes. Stretching that principle to the afore-mentioned examples, we should try to recognise and be familiar with the components of our currently-accepted contracted forms.

所謂 『飲水思源』、吾曰 『言而必思其字之原』 也。 And since we are on the subject of contracted forms, how about just plain 『言思字原』? :mrgreen:
amhoanna
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Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: What to Revive?

Post by amhoanna »

Just to confirm that I am reading what you wrote correctly:
汝捌想過編寫一本“電子業辭典”,無?
Right. Sorry to be using ugly toneless romaji instead of kanji and Hoklo-style romaji. Sometimes it's all I have to work with in the webcafes in this country. Well, at least they're cheap, fast (hello Indo), and let U log on without a national ID (unlike China). 8)

If what U have is really just a page, would U like to have it posted on the web as a webpage? My websites are in a shambles, but it would be cool to post your mini-glossary once I have everything set up right. Just one of many options.
China and Taiwan (yes, that was me being politically-incorrect again):
:P
And then there are the transliterations that are clearly biased towards the Northern pronunciations. My pet hate for this one is 巧克力 for 'chocolate'.
I hear U on this one! Whenever I think about it, though, I have to say that Southern (Tng/Thong) pronunciations wouldn't do people any favors in Mandarin. Try using the old Tsinoy (Sino-Pinoy) place names in Mandarin. Each language needs to have its own transliterations.

It's interesting that a lot of Vietnamese translations of non-Sino proper names are also just Sino-Viet readings of kanji transliterations based on Chinese languages.
I've had many PRC Chinese over the years try to tell me that Taiwanese and Hong Kongers are so westernised compared to themselves, but when I start asking them about visiting temples and having altars at home, they don't know how to answer and I have to remind them that most Taiwanese would be able to answer such questions.
...
but I would say Taiwanese and Hong Kongers actually think in a more conservatively old Chinese way than PRC Chinese ̣not to mention 南洋 Chinese), particularly those in urban areas.
I think there's grains of truth on all sides. True, the Communist culture that washed over China and re-did China was arguably a very European thing, and it killed off much of "old China". My take is that orang HK and urban TWese are both more "conservatively Chinese" and more "Westernized" than most China Chinese, with lots of exceptions: I'd say it's mighty hard to "out-Chinese" the people of Teochew. My impression is that some Sino-M'sians are yet more conservatively Chinese AND more Westernized at the same time than HK/TW people.

It's funny that China Chinese will kind of deride HK/TWese as being more Westernized, while TWese themselves cite being more Westernized--"bijiao zao" is the common keyword--as one of the straws they grasp at when they try to list their competitive advantages over China Chinese.

China Chinese also think South Koreans are whitewashed. But put the S Korean flag side by side with the Chinese flag, and tell me who got a better whitewashing.

In the end, from interacting with China Chinese people, esp. people from the boondocks, I have to question the assumption that b/c China lost many of the trappings of its old culture during the Cultural Rev, therefore it lost much of its old culture as well. The urge to kill girl babies comes from nowhere if not the old culture.
Actually, perhaps he meant the opposite? It isn't always the case that Taiwanese Mandarin is more Anglicised. I've often thought of it the other way around, where Taiwanese have a better grasp of the Classical Chinese influenced idiom, and PRC Chinese have fallen into a kind of translationese, "purer" on the surface in lexicon (not so many English words used by the young "cool" people), but actually closer to English and other western languages through ignorance of the Classical tradition. From my own experience PRC Chinese is much easier to translate into English than Chinese written by educated Taiwanese.
Yet again, very interesting. My experience with Taiwanese people ... is that they like to use English words directly instead of words that exist in Mandarin or written Chinese. They feel these English words are improper in formal writing, such as textbooks or instruction booklets, but U will hear them everywhere, and see them in Powerpoint presentations and emails, etc. Displaying their abilities to throw English words around seems to directly correlate with "face". There are "Chinese purists" in Taiwan... The interesting thing is that they're usually 49ers, a.k.a. Taro, a.k.a. 1949 "Mainlanders" who've spent time in Anglo countries and gone home with reinforced "Chinese" identities. The Hoklo majority could care less, and, indeed, I guess, why should they?
amhoanna
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Re: What to Revive?

Post by amhoanna »

I have often wondered whether Taiwan is the ideal place to raise and educate my children. What I mean is,
Long-time merantau! Something that's close to my heart as well...

(http://kamus.orisinil.com/indonesia-english/merantau)

Mark, I think U're right on all counts except the English.

The standard of Chinese language education is probably highest in TW, true. U can tell b/c TW has the longest Tet (New Year's) vacations of any country. :lol:

In practice, esp. outside the ROC capital, it seems that few people actually learn Chinese to a higher level than the average China Chinese person or Chinese educated M'sian.

The academic standards... That's arguably a minus, not a plus, but then again, the real minus is the academic pressure that falls on kids in TW.

As for the English, TWese kids come up with atrocious English skills. But I see no need to worry. When's the last time U met a young person anywhere in the world with a parent who speaks fluent English, who can't do the same him or herself? They just somehow figure it out. Now, Hoklo and Malay, those are a different story.

I might recommend Tailam for U.

Tailam is where Chinese and Hoklo culture landed on TW. It's the cradle of Sino-Taiwanese culture. Much of Hoklo Taiwan rolls its eyes or shrugs it shoulders at "deep" Chinese culture. Formosa is a frontier of Sino culture, just like Luzon, just like Hainam, just like Australia and Alaska in the Anglosphere. "We the hoanna" will spit betelnut juice all over your calligraphy. :lol: But Tailam is different, it's very Hoklo, but it also has its Chinese literati, its monuments, its Chinese holy places...

Tailam is the one TWese city where U can be really comfortable speaking Hoklo, i.e. U never have to fight to switch people to Hoklo. Young people and non-Hoklos switch to Hoklo with ease, sometimes eagerly, and, even if some disliked it, they wouldn't dare let on, not in Tailam.

There's jobs to be had at the hightech industrial park just outside of town, and some hightech jobs an hour away in Takkau / Kohiong, "the Busan/Osaka/Surabaya of Taiwan".

There sure is a lot more land and breathing space in Tailam than northern TW. And the cost of living in southern TW is, to me, one of the wonders of the modern world...

All that said, I wouldn't want to raise my own kids solely in Tailam or Takkau, much less points north. The kids would get ROC-washed--in some ways even worse than in the ROC capital--ah in e laupe tiam hiah posiu e khoankeng tianntioh e7 tong-be-tiau! :mrgreen:
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