FEAR and SURPRISE

[AndrewAndrew]

It seems possible that the name Mákáu itself came out of some Hokloid language. Maybe even a Hoklicized Tai-Kadai language that died out in the 19th century? What do the old folks say in Penang: Mákáu or Òmûi?

Makau. There is a Makau-ke in Penang (Penang St, between Bishop & Market Sts).

[SimL]

Surprisingly (as we were both born and bred in Penang), my usage differs very much from aokh's for "2. They were all very surprised... / 伊儂「著怔驚」".

I don't know how to say "surprised" at all, but "tioh-chEN-kiaN" means, for me, "to get a fright". Like the English equivalent, there are very specific limitations. One is that the thing has to be sudden, and another is that - after the initial shock - it turns out that the thing isn't so serious after all.

So, if one sees a possibly fierce dog approaching from a long distance, which turns out to be very friendly, then one doesn't "to get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN" (because there is no suddenness, even if the fear turns out to be ungrounded). Conversely, if one suddenly sees a truck approaching a pedestrian at high speed, and it then knocks him over and kills him, then one doesn't "to get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN" either (because it is sudden, and turns out to be very serious after all).

So, for me, "to get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN" are (typically) used for situations where, for example, one suddenly hears a clock fall off the wall, or someone jumps out at one from behind a door and says "boo!".

Having said this, I think the second condition (of it turning out to be less serious) is commonly present but not strictly necessary. If one hears a loud crash, and it turns out that a cupboard has fallen over, and it turns out that the cupboard was full of very expensive porcelain, then one can still "get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN", even though the consequences are quite serious. But in that case, the "seriousness" of the fact is not connected with the initial fear.

I'm not really familiar with "tioh-kiaN". Does anyone say "phah4-kiaN1" (= literally "strike-scared")? As in: "i chia tioh long liau, i sua(h) phah-kiaN khi, tong-kim m-kaN sai chia liau" = ("after he had that car accident, he became scared / got frightened, and nowadays doesn't dare drive any more").

I'm not sure of this usage, but it seems vaguely familiar...

[amhoanna]

Welcome back, Sim. Thanks for the detail. It seems to me, subjectively, that Hoklo doesn't lend itself to expressing surprise well, nor talking about it.

If I had to characterize or "stereotype" Hoklo people in Taiwan and the Phils, esp. guys, it's that they never admit surprise, and always claim or act like they "saw it coming". For some reason, MY/SG Hokkiens seem to be different -- then again, stereotypical Bengs seem to be like that too.

What is má in Hōlómá, 馬?

Right, má as in GRANDMOTHER doesn't seem to fit, meaningwise. My guess is it comes from a Hakka word "ma" meaning maybe MOTHER and/or WENCH. Why this connection? Well, guys can address girls as "ma" in New York English...

According to wikipedia, the name Macau comes from 媽閣廟. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Macau . Sounds very probable, right?

Makes sense, esp. considering the -au in Portuguese is like the short -au in Malay, Cantonese and VNmese rather than Hoklo -au.

Makau. There is a Makau-ke in Penang (Penang St, between Bishop & Market Sts).

What are the tone contours here, Andrew?

[SimL]

Hi amhoanna,

Thanks - it's nice to be back .

>> What are the tone contours here, Andrew?

I don't know the street in question, but when my family use it, it's "mākáu".

I never used the word myself, as a child, but there's a long story relating to how I know the tones of this.

In my family history research, I asked one of my relatives "how much of a 'Hokkien identity' he had as a child". He said that he had a very strong Hokkien identity, even as a child. I was quite surprised by this, as a (strong) sense of identity usually only arises as a result of living in an environment where that identity contrasts with other identities. So - for example - I expect that "the Chinese" in Malaysia would have a strong sense of being Chinese, because they are in regular contact with Indians and Malays. I feel that they would have a stronger sense of being Chinese than (say) a Chinese person living in rural China, in a town of 10,000, where everyone else was Chinese, and even spoke the same variant of Chinese as he/she does. As I thought that the Chinese in Penang would have been pretty homogeneously speakers of Penang Hokkien, I was surprised that he expressed having felt this strong sense of a Hokkien (as opposed to a Chinese) identity.

So, I queried him on it. He explained that there was a minority of Cantonese speakers in Penang in his youth. The majority Hokkien speakers (or, at any rate, the people of his own background) treated them with contempt (part of it being that they didn't speak Hokkien). The derogatory term they used for them was "makau tu" (= "pig"). He explained that it was interesting that this term of abuse was used for *all* Cantonese speakers. People were aware that not all of them came from Macau, but this term was used to cover them all, irrespective. The use of that term - he continued to explain - brought into focus the fact that he himself was a *Hokkien* speaker, hence producing a stronger consciousness of a Hokkien identity.

He (retrospectively) felt very negative and ashamed about this "racism" on the part of his own community, and refused to repeat the account on tape. And - unfortunately - all my arguments about the importance of "accurately recording historical circumstances", even negative ones (with it perhaps even having the positive effect of "learning from history"), were to no avail. He steadfastly continued to refuse. So, there is no recorded evidence of this (to me) interesting historical socio-linguistic fact, other than that I say that I heard my relative say it.

That's how I know the tone of "makau" in Penang Hokkien!

[AndrewAndrew]

Yes, in the street name it also probably means Cantonese rather than specifically Macau.

[SimL]

Oh, there's another term I remember: "tioh8-chuah4".

As far as I can see, it's pretty much identical in meaning to my "tioh-chEN-kiaN", i.e. "to get a fright", "be startled". I see very little distinction at all. Douglas gives a "chhoah" with the following meaning (but no character): "to tremble; to have spasms; to flash, as lightning", which I suppose is the syllable I have in might.

I'm not totally sure any more, but I thïnk "wa bo chuah lu" was a very informal / street-talk way of saying "wa bo kiaN lu" (= "I'm not afraid of you").

[amhoanna]

Choa' in TW also means SHAKING WITH FEAR.

Choa' te' tán = WAITING, AND SHAKING WITH FEAR TOWARD THE OUTCOME.

Interesting that Mãkáu has been used to mean all Cantos, and also has whoring connotations. I'm under the impression that, at one point, the whores of Singapore were mostly Canto. There were also lots of Canto whores in West America in Portland, Frisco, etc., sometimes referred to as 老舉, 百人妻, etc.

[niuc]

I'm not really familiar with "tioh-kiaN". Does anyone say "phah4-kiaN1" (= literally "strike-scared")? As in: "i chia tioh long liau, i sua(h) phah-kiaN khi, tong-kim m-kaN sai chia liau" = ("after he had that car accident, he became scared / got frightened, and nowadays doesn't dare drive any more").

I'm not sure of this usage, but it seems vaguely familiar...

Sim, I have never heard phah-kiaⁿ as per your usage. But there is phah-chiⁿ-kiaⁿ, as transitive verb e.g. hit-ciah-ciáu hō·-i-phah-chiⁿ-kiaⁿ, suà-pe· khì·_ ä (the bird was scared by him, therefore it flied away).

So, I queried him on it. He explained that there was a minority of Cantonese speakers in Penang in his youth. The majority Hokkien speakers (or, at any rate, the people of his own background) treated them with contempt (part of it being that they didn't speak Hokkien).

Although in Bagan we didn't have special terms (as far as I can remember) for non-Hokkien Chinese, there was always a form of stereotyping for other groups, actually also for different types of Hokkiens and even for different area of the town.

He (retrospectively) felt very negative and ashamed about this "racism" on the part of his own community, and refused to repeat the account on tape. And - unfortunately - all my arguments about the importance of "accurately recording historical circumstances", even negative ones (with it perhaps even having the positive effect of "learning from history"), were to no avail. He steadfastly continued to refuse. So, there is no recorded evidence of this (to me) interesting historical socio-linguistic fact, other than that I say that I heard my relative say it.

Thanks for sharing. Racial/tribal discrimination is bad, but as we all have known [and might even experience], historically it was very common.

Choa' in TW also means SHAKING WITH FEAR.

Choa' te' tán = WAITING, AND SHAKING WITH FEAR TOWARD THE OUTCOME.

My usage is similar to this.