Hoklo in Hapcai + Singgora, reports from the field

[amhoanna]

Singgora = สงขลา Songkhla = 宋卡
Hạpcai = หาดใหญ่ Haatyai = 合艾 = Hat Yai

Back in the Hoklosphere at last. Well, kind of.

The first mototaxista to come at me as I stepped off the bus in Singgora asked me, "Mau ke mana?" But he didn't seem to understand words like "jalan" and "beberapa"! Làukhùi ·ne'! There is a big Malayophone minority, but I don't know how to tell who's in it and who's not. I tried speaking Malay in a shop yesterday but the guy switched me to English.

I've gotten used to people talking to me in Mandarin now, it seems to work as a badge of Tnglang identity here in southern Thailand just as in Cambodia and M'sia, whereas Saigon is clearly Canto-first. A big banner hung up across the street from the Persatuan Teochew 潮州會舘 advertises Chinese-language pó·sịppan (buxiban) run by the Chinese 公校 of Singgora -- a Chinese-language public school?

Young Tnglang in southern Thailand seem to be uncomfortable even talking about keywords like Hokkien or Teochew. This will need further testing, though. Today close by the market, a 60-ish lady that ran a little pn̄gtiàm started talking to me in Mandarin since I was struggling with my Tai Siam. When I was done eating, I asked her if people here could speak Fujianhua. She said she was Teochew. I must've nodded and said Aha! or something, b/c she asked me if I spoke Teochew, and I said,

"Tiỏciu'oẹ ka' Hokkiàn'oẹ lóng cha-m̃-to ·la'!" (since the Teochew don't seem to say chaputto)

She agreed and I can't recall exactly what she said, but she rattled off some synonyms for SAME in Hokkien -- I think she said pẻⁿ'iũⁿ 平樣 and sio siảng or pẻⁿsiảng (is that a word?), and then she said something like, "In Teochew it's cịt iũⁿ." A Teochew speaking Hokkien at a high level, apparently -- probably a clue that Hokkien is the dominant Sino idiom in Singgora, which fits my 2nd-hand knowledge of the area.

As I turned to leave, she said, "Ẽtáu cài lải!"

It remains to be seen whether the Hokkien spoken here is "Penang Hokkien".

[amhoanna]

Trying to speak Malay in Singgora hasn't been a straightforward affair, even though I know a lot of people here must speak it. Today I ate at a diner with both Siamese and Jawi script on its sign. I asked the girl if she spoke Malay, so she called another lady over, and eventually this lady called another lady over to "deal with me" even though she had understood me well enough to tell me that the diner was out of what I was trying to order -- "habis". I was really at a loss at one pt with the second girl b/c she asked me to speak Malay, twice, even though I already was. I mean, did she think I was speaking Hokkien? It boggled my mind how much trouble they had understanding my "Pidgin Bahasa Indo". I also got the feeling that it was embarrassing for them to have to speak Malay in public, at least with someone that spoke a Riau-based dialect and spoke it badly. It was a lot like speaking Hoklo in Taiwan back when I spoke it real bad -- people had trouble realizing I was speaking Hoklo, they felt really uncomfortable that I was trying, they looked at me all wary like I was from outer space, etc.

Jakarta should let Papua and Aceh go and come free Pattani and Mindanao instead.

[niuc]

Amhoanna, thank you for sharing your ever interesting journeys. Are you visiting so many places to collect certain informations for your books etc?

A big banner hung up across the street from the Persatuan Teochew 潮州會舘 advertises Chinese-language pó·sịppan (buxiban) run by the Chinese 公校 of Singgora -- a Chinese-language public school?

Do you know what language they use in the Chinese school? Chinese-language pó·sịppan / public school = Mandarin pó·sịppan / public school? If the language of instruction is in Mandarin, why they still need pó·sịppan? Or the school is in Thai?

My Bintan Teochew friends usually say 平樣 peⁿ-ioⁿ (I am not sure about the tones), which I never heard in Hokkien. I asked a Singaporean Teochew friend just now and he never heard of "cịt iũⁿ" but only peⁿ-ioⁿ.

Mandarin campaign indeed is "powderful" (Singlish slang for "powerful"), as naturally everyone is attracted to economic gains of speaking an international language. Last week I met a young Tsinoy whose Hokkien I can understand. [Actually we mostly talked in English. His English is much better than most Singaporeans. His accent was the trigger for me to ask where he was from. Interestingly in his variant: 豬 is ti·/ty, but 糜 is bê instead of bê·/bêr.] He was from Manila (but not Binondo) and confirmed that his teachers ("imported" from 福建省) explained the lessons in Hokkien although the books were in Mandarin. He said only a few Singaporeans (esp. youngsters -> no surprise here) understood him when he talked to them in Hokkien. So he said that he should have focused more on learning Mandarin last time, as it's the useful one (among Chinese languages).

About your difficulties in engaging Malay speakers there, could it be also due to recent conflicts between separatists & Thai government?

Jakarta should let Papua and Aceh go and come free Pattani and Mindanao instead.

I agree on the part of letting them go but not about "freeing", as I don't think they want to be ruled by Jakarta either. I used to wish for independent Riau, or at least Riau Archipelago. I think the latter would have been better for local Chinese there, as they live harmoniously with Riau Archipelagic Malays [A young Malay man working at the hotel counter in Tanjung Pinang even told me that the country needed a Chinese president to be more progressive. I don't think it was/is realistic but the point is that I was very surprised by his lack of 排華 mentality (of varying degrees) that I often met everywhere else.], while the Sumatran Riau Malays are more 排華. If Jakarta cannot or doesn't want to prevent the movement toward "shariah-ization" of Indonesia (not merely Aceh), Bali and other eastern provinces better leave before it's too late. Certain places are already flooded with migrants from western part of the country. And from what I read, Moros are not majority in Mindanao anymore. How about Pattani?

[amhoanna]

Do you know what language they use in the Chinese school? Chinese-language pó·sịppan / public school = Mandarin pó·sịppan / public school? If the language of instruction is in Mandarin, why they still need pó·sịppan? Or the school is in Thai?

I'm guessing it's for people that didn't/don't go to the Chinese school.

I'm guessing the Chinese school would teach in Mandarin or some combination of Mandarin, Tai Siam, and English. I'll bet my rented motorbike that nothing is taught in Hokkien there. That would be so ... Pinoy.

I have an interesting "Hokkien photo" to post from Hapcai, though. Not tonight though.

I asked a Singaporean Teochew friend just now and he never heard of "cịt iũⁿ" but only peⁿ-ioⁿ.

Interesting. There's actually a lot of variation w/i Teochew.

Pinoy tư 豬, interesting. "Mainstream Pinoy Hoklo" doesn't seem to have that ư sound at all.

could it be also due to recent conflicts between separatists & Thai government?

I'd be surprised if it was that direct.

排華 mentality (of varying degrees) that I often met everywhere else.

Interesting comment. We haven't discussed this topic much. Goá tữ Bảlỉ ẻ sỉcụn, kiànnạ khừ ciạ' nasi Padang, chanthiaⁿ só·'ũ ẻ oảnkang lóng suỉ tu cịt ẻ kesáibịn ·chutlải, m̃ cai sĩ bẽ giàn cò goá è senglí a'sĩ merantau siuⁿ kú ·a lảng te' thiám niã'́ã. Ce siõng bỏ ũ sì gõ· pái ·ne'. Bảlỉ ẻ Jiáu'oa lảng tọ bỏ saⁿ' ok, a' Jiokjã lảng kinpún tọ kha' hólé, kha' hó taùtịn koè kakĩ lảng!

Moros are not majority in Mindanao anymore. How about Pattani?

The Manila gov't has been very forceful with its transmigrasi programs to Mindanao... Pattani doesn't seem to be so badly off, from what I can see from Singgora, which is the edge of the area. The town of Singgora might be 30-thóng % Moslem, but I read somewhere that most of the Moslems in this area have both Malay and Tai blood. (!) That would seem to be the case too from looking at obviously Moslem people (women with headgear) and hearing them talk -- mostly the local Tai dialect, I think, which is close to Siamese. South of Singgora town, it's majority Moslem all the way down to Singapura, and then again from there down to the lair of Nyai Loro Kidul.

[amhoanna]

Random conversation in Tai that didn't go half bad. At one pt this guy used this one word over and over again. It sounded like sin42 se·24, the [e] being something like a Ciangciu open /e·/. Eventually from context I realized this was a word for SEER or FORTUNE TELLER.

先生 sinseⁿ, anybody? Is this word used that way in any of you-all's variants?

I think in TW it would mean DOCTOR first and foremost, or is it TEACHER?

I wasn't able to find this word in dictionaries. Wouldn't be surprised if it was regional to Singgora and maybe out to Trang and Phuket. AFAIK, this is the "most Hokkien" region in the Tai-o-sphere, at least after the de-Hokkienization of the central Tai Siam area that occurred when the Teochews "took over".

BTW, had a roadside dish of rice called ข้าวยำ khaau42 yam33 that was just like some of the rice dishes I had in Indo. I think in M'sia they call it nasi kelabu. I think the Javanese version would be nasi pecel.

[SimL]

... Eventually from context I realized this was a word for SEER or FORTUNE TELLER.

先生 sinseⁿ, anybody? Is this word used that way in any of you-all's variants?

I think in TW it would mean DOCTOR first and foremost, or is it TEACHER?.

Hi amhoanna,

In Penang Hokkien (of my youth at any rate) a teacher, or a doctor in the sense of a practioner of Traditional Chinese Medicine - a Western doctor being a lo2-kun1 (from Malay "dukun", a practioner of traditional Malay medicine!). Which of the first two was meant would generally be clear from context - school or illness.

So, in my variant, sin-sEN was never used for a fortune teller (I think that would been "khuaN-miaN (e?) lang, but I'd have to check with my parents). But I guess it's a small step from "healing" to "faith healing" to "magic/fortune-telling". People turn to them in times of trouble, as in a major illness. From my family history project, I found out that in my father's youth (1930's) Western doctors, TCM doctors, *and* the gods in the temple were consulted if the kids had a major illness.

(Typed on the tiny keys of my blackberry, so please excuse any typos.)

[amhoanna]

Thanks, Sim.

In TW a FORTUNE TELLER would be a 相命仙 siòngmiạsian. Not sure if 仙 is the "real glyph" here.

BTW I've once again stumbled into a town during a festival. Yesterday was the start of an annual Vegetarian Festival associated with 九皇大帝 here in Hạpcai and Singgora. Big banners saying 齋 and เจ (= POJ ce) fly on every street.

That said, I had tưkhapuịⁿ last night and it was the best budget tikhap̣ng I've had anywhere. I also ordered in Hoklo. The thảuke·niủ, an obvious Tai Siam type, replied "Sìcạp?" to make sure that I was trying to order the 40-baht kind.

Hạpcai prob. has more Chinese temples, schools, persatuans, and benevolent associations than any town I've ever been in, inc. probably Tailam on Taiwan! The food has a Hokkien bent, which is good, in'uị goá kinnỉ bỏ be' kò' ciạ' Tiỏciu hỉ'oản koétiảu ·ala!!! I need to write up a short blog post on food in Thailand. The thing is that sitdown budget food is almost all Teochew kuayteow, mostly involving fishballs! Or, if not, then nasi campur with ready-made dishes to choose from. Sitdown budget Tai food is very elusive -- I think this is b/c Siamese and Lao people strongly prefer to eat at home unless they're dining seriously. Budget food is strictly a tapau affair. They also tend to like to eat on the floor at home. The words for TABLE and CHAIR are borrowed from Hoklo. When they're done, all that packaging winds up in the hallway or in the streets to curdle and stink up the tropical air.

Happened by a temple called 蓮花閣 last night. I noticed the Siamese name of the place was inscribed as วัดเลิยนฮัวเกาะ, a direct transliteration of Hokkien except for the syllable not underlined (meaning TEMPLE), kind of unusual b/c most such places in Thailand seem to have a genuine Tai name, not a transliteration. A POJ transliteration of the transliteration would be lian-hoa-koh, tones 33-33-21, with both occurrences of "a" being schwa-like in Siamese.

[niuc]

I have an interesting "Hokkien photo" to post from Hapcai, though.

Please share when you have time.

Pinoy tư 豬, interesting. "Mainstream Pinoy Hoklo" doesn't seem to have that ư sound at all.

Ah, now you make me to doubt my memory... Probably he said 'ti'! I thought most Pinoy Hokkien were from Cìn-kang 晉江 area, which should be a Cuân-ciu type with "i·/ư" sound? If 豬 is pronounced as 'ti' and 糜 as 'bê', this is Ē-mn^g variant, right?

Interesting comment. We haven't discussed this topic much. Goá tữ Bảlỉ ẻ sỉcụn, kiànnạ khừ ciạ' nasi Padang, chanthiaⁿ só·'ũ ẻ oảnkang lóng suỉ tu cịt ẻ kesáibịn ·chutlải, m̃ cai sĩ bẽ giàn cò goá è senglí a'sĩ merantau siuⁿ kú ·a lảng te' thiám niã'́ã. Ce siõng bỏ ũ sì gõ· pái ·ne'. Bảlỉ ẻ Jiáu'oa lảng tọ bỏ saⁿ' ok, a' Jiokjã lảng kinpún tọ kha' hólé, kha' hó taùtịn koè kakĩ lảng!

Tī Bâlî gún tútiòh ê Bâlî lâng kohsī buē phaí. Thiaⁿkóng Kuta kah kîthaⁿ uáhaí ê só·caī ū cincuē guātuē laî cuèkang ë. Ubud ê su·ki kā gún kóng Ubud khah bô, só·í ē khah ancuân khah hó·ⁿkheh, in’uī caītuē ê Bâlî lâng be·h póchî Bâlî ê miâⁿsiaⁿ. Lí· sī tītô· tútiòh hiâi kuesaíbīn ê guânkang ne?

Guá tī hiâi ū bué cìtpún kuésé· Bâlî ê lìtsú· kah hongsiòk ê cu·. Thàk liaú khah cai’iáⁿ tíngpaí ê Bâlî (huncuè kuí’äⁿ kok ê) lâng guânlâi sī cin ok koh bíng, hō· hit tangsî ciu’uî ê huêkaù ông bôpiàn hânghòk ïn. Āmā ūkaù cândím, púntó kokkok nā kaīkī phahciàn, siôngsiông ciōng phahsuciàn ê Bâlî lâng buē hō· guātuē lâng cuè lô·. Pat thiaⁿ lângkóng Pasiâⁿ (Batavia) kah Mālàkká ê bābā kah niûhiaⁿ ê huan’ä có·màh ingkai cincuē sī Bâlî cabó·.

Jiáu’ua lâng khah cuē sī khah ū lémaū, m-kú khah gaûké. A’nā Sì·suí ê ē khah cho·ló·, a’ā khah thòtìt. Jiòkjiā lâng ingkai ēsaí sng`sī téhó ê Jiáu’ua lâng. Solô suidiân sī Jiòkjiā ê "guânthaû", m-kú hitpīn ê lâng khah gaûké kohkhah paîhuâ. Guá ū pîng’iú sī Solô ê Tng^lâng; 1998 nî huánluān ê sî, in pîngsiông sî ū laî’óng (cìció ū saⁿ ciohmng-) ê chùpiⁿ suah huánlìntng’ huahkóng tō kā in thaîsï. Ìnnî kîthaⁿ ê bîncòk nā cah tokiàm sī chah tī io thâucîng. Jiáu’ua lâng ê khiaukiàm (keris) sī chah tī kaciah’aū; piáubīnsiōng unsûn, kohkhah siūkhì mākoh bīn chiòchiò, tānsī thàn lâng bô cù’ì tō cìtto chiâm lòhkhï·.


先生 siansiⁿ in my variant is used in the way very similar to what Sim has explained, mainly means "teacher", rarely "TCM doctor", and not "fortune teller".

In TW a FORTUNE TELLER would be a 相命仙 siòngmiạsian. Not sure if 仙 is the "real glyph" here.

I has never heard this term used in Bâgán'uē. Usually we say khuàⁿmiāⁿë 看命个. I think some say khuàⁿmiāⁿsian 看命仙, and 仙 should be the correct TLJ. 仙 'sian' as a verb means to tell wonderful story to deceive, persuade or pacify someone. We also have the term piánsian, i.e. a conman or to con. Another term, phiànsian 騙仙, is a liar.

Yesterday was the start of an annual Vegetarian Festival associated with 九皇大帝 here in Hạpcai and Singgora.

Bagansiapiapi also has the festival. From my experience, usually only certain people, usually elderly, took part in being vegetarian during the festival. Btw rather than 食齋, we say 食清 ciàhching. The opposite of 清 is 臊 cho.

I think I ever saw the 九皇大帝 banner in Singapore.

The food has a Hokkien bent, which is good, in'uị goá kinnỉ bỏ be' kò' ciạ' Tiỏciu hỉ'oản koétiảu ·ala!!! I need to write up a short blog post on food in Thailand.

Could you help to elaborate regarding what you mean by "Hokkien bent"? The types of the food, the taste, etc? And what is your personal "definition" of Hokkien food? And yes, please, it'll be great to read your food blog!

[SimL]

Hi niuc,

I've still got your question about "kuiN1-he2" for "turning off the light" in Southern Malayan Peninsular Hokkien in the back of my mind, so not forgotten / not ignoring you. I just have to remember to ask my mother, when next I speak to my parents.

Yesterday was the start of an annual Vegetarian Festival associated with 九皇大帝 here in Hạpcai and Singgora.

Bagansiapiapi also has the festival. From my experience, usually only certain people, usually elderly, took part in being vegetarian during the festival. Btw rather than 食齋, we say 食清 ciàhching. The opposite of 清 is 臊 cho.

I'm happy to hear that this festival is still being celebrated in so many far-apart places in the S.E. Asian Hokkien-speaking world.

I'm not sure of what the age demographic is with regard to actually practising vegetarianism (*exclusively*, see next paragraph) during the festival in Penang, but when I was last there about 5 years ago, the participation in the rituals was still evenly spread over the whole expected age range, i.e. it wasn't distinctly just the older part of the population.

I think there might even be a topic on the Forum for this - I posted links to youtube clips (from Phuket?) of mediums etc. As I explained there, food stalls with yellow bunting appear all over Penang in this period, and these stalls serve vegetarian food. These were also visited by people of all ages, so, even if these people aren't strictly vegetarian for the whole period, the proportion of vegetarian vs non-vegetarian food being consumed certainly goes up dramatically.

When I was there, the term my friends and relatives used was just 食菜 "ciah8-chai3".

[niuc]

Hi Sim

I've still got your question about "kuiN1-he2" for "turning off the light" in Southern Malayan Peninsular Hokkien in the back of my mind, so not forgotten / not ignoring you. I just have to remember to ask my mother, when next I speak to my parents.

Thank you, no problem!

I'm not sure of what the age demographic is with regard to actually practising vegetarianism (*exclusively*, see next paragraph) during the festival in Penang, but when I was last there about 5 years ago, the participation in the rituals was still evenly spread over the whole expected age range, i.e. it wasn't distinctly just the older part of the population.

I see. So the participation level is much higher in Penang. Btw I was talking about my experience being there, more than 20 years ago! I am not sure about now, but my impression is that the Vegetarian Festival always has much less participation than the 五月十六 Festival.

When I was there, the term my friends and relatives used was just 食菜 "ciah8-chai3".

I think I ever heard the term used in the same way as yours.