Regarding the Chinese government's simplified characters rules, can the component substitutions in table #2 (132+14 radicals) be applied to *any* traditional characters? ...(excluding, of course, whole characters that match the 14 component-only radicals, and excluding the characters that are already covered by the 352 simplified characters of table #1)... or are they limited to provide only the 1,754 simplified characters specified in table #3 (so that even if traditional character not listed in table #3 contains a component conforming to a table #2 match, it is not applied)?
Regards,
rathpy
[%sig%]
simplification rule
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seba
Re: simplification rule
Hey, could you give me some more information ? where can one find these rules and tables ? have you got some links or papers related to this ?
thanks
seba
thanks
seba
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rathpy
Re: simplification rule
Seba wrote:
> Hey, could you give me some more information ? where can one find
> these rules and tables ? have you got some links or papers related to
> this ?
They're in the back of a dictionary I have. Dylan Sung has a great set of pages that explain simplification (including the rules and tables) at http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hanzi/
Rdgards,
rathpy
[%sig%]
> Hey, could you give me some more information ? where can one find
> these rules and tables ? have you got some links or papers related to
> this ?
They're in the back of a dictionary I have. Dylan Sung has a great set of pages that explain simplification (including the rules and tables) at http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hanzi/
Rdgards,
rathpy
[%sig%]
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Dylan Sung
Re: simplification rule
Strictly speaking, the official 2000 or so simplification are the official ones. However, if you go through the set of Chinese characters in GB, you find that there are new characters which take on the rules of the simplifications but aren't official. So, you have the problem of unofficial characters. In the mainland books I read, (not a wide variety, as they're mainly confined to a narrow field of interest) characters which don't have official simplification are written in their traditional form. But as the non-offical characters appear on computer, they may become like a defacto standard version, perhaps...
There isn't any reason why the rules can't be used ad infinitum with regard to the remaining thousands of unsimplified characters, but the PRC government hasn't made any of them official.
Cheers,
Dyl.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk
There isn't any reason why the rules can't be used ad infinitum with regard to the remaining thousands of unsimplified characters, but the PRC government hasn't made any of them official.
Cheers,
Dyl.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk
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rathpy
Re: simplification rule
Thanks.
I've come across a character that looks like it has been simplified according to table #2, even though it is already covered by and superceded by table #1, i.e. 面 U+9762 is the official simplification of 麵 U+9EB5 ("noodles"), but there is also 麺 U+9EBA (which substitutes component 麦 U+9EA6 for 麥 U+9EA5). I wonder who would use that one!
I wonder how many other characters (or potential characters) there are that could be formed by applying table #2 rules that violate table #1. (?)
Then there is 麪 U+9EAA which I have also seen used for "noodles" in Hong Kong. I suppose it is a traditional variant rather than a simplification; but are any lists which specify the variants preferred in PRC versus elsewhere? So far, I have taken note of: 吕呂, 却卻, 脚腳, 朵朶, 黄黃, 冲沖, 凉涼.
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I recently learned that you can't always just make a simplification substitution whenever you come across an official match. For example, 干 U+5E72 is the simplified character for 乾 U+4E7E (as well as 幹 U+5E79), but you can only use it when pronounced 'gan1' (meaning "dry"), not when pronounced 'qian2' (meaning "heaven; male").
I suspect that exceptions such as these are specified in the thirteen footnotes that accompany the official tables (at least in my dictionary's copy). I'm not good enough to understand the Chinese explanations, however.
If anyone has a copy and feels inclined to translate them, I would appreciate it. If you don't have a copy I could scan it.
Regards,
rathpy
I've come across a character that looks like it has been simplified according to table #2, even though it is already covered by and superceded by table #1, i.e. 面 U+9762 is the official simplification of 麵 U+9EB5 ("noodles"), but there is also 麺 U+9EBA (which substitutes component 麦 U+9EA6 for 麥 U+9EA5). I wonder who would use that one!
I wonder how many other characters (or potential characters) there are that could be formed by applying table #2 rules that violate table #1. (?)
Then there is 麪 U+9EAA which I have also seen used for "noodles" in Hong Kong. I suppose it is a traditional variant rather than a simplification; but are any lists which specify the variants preferred in PRC versus elsewhere? So far, I have taken note of: 吕呂, 却卻, 脚腳, 朵朶, 黄黃, 冲沖, 凉涼.
---
I recently learned that you can't always just make a simplification substitution whenever you come across an official match. For example, 干 U+5E72 is the simplified character for 乾 U+4E7E (as well as 幹 U+5E79), but you can only use it when pronounced 'gan1' (meaning "dry"), not when pronounced 'qian2' (meaning "heaven; male").
I suspect that exceptions such as these are specified in the thirteen footnotes that accompany the official tables (at least in my dictionary's copy). I'm not good enough to understand the Chinese explanations, however.
If anyone has a copy and feels inclined to translate them, I would appreciate it. If you don't have a copy I could scan it.
Regards,
rathpy
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Dylan Sung
Re: simplification rule
Unfortunately, I'm can't access my webspace here in HK to update stuff. If I remember, I'll try and put up those rules, when I have some time...
BTW, some seemingly simplified versions (not on the official PRC list) may not be Chinese simplifications, or may actually be variants as used across the CJK sphere. For example, the character for rabbit in Korean fonts is 兎 but in Chinese fonts its 兔. I have actually come across the former here in HK!
Cheers,
Dyl.
BTW, some seemingly simplified versions (not on the official PRC list) may not be Chinese simplifications, or may actually be variants as used across the CJK sphere. For example, the character for rabbit in Korean fonts is 兎 but in Chinese fonts its 兔. I have actually come across the former here in HK!
Cheers,
Dyl.
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Dylan Sung
Re: simplification rule
After posting the last message, something came to mind. Here in HK, there are lists available of the characters used by school kids for the first 6 years of their education (amounts to around 2600 chars). They also proscribe correct character forms, as opposed to variants and this may be for printing purposes. For example, the character for woman 女 should the horizontal be crossed by only one of the diagonals, or should two be crossed. Certainly, in many publications, one sees that the horizontal stroke is crossed by two of the diagonals. This is a minor font difference with no impact on whether the characters is simplified or not. Also, the character for colour/sex 色, in some older publications one see the character knife 刀 on top of 巴. (You often hear the saying on top the character of the character for sex is a knife - a dangerous thing!). But in modern fonts you see a character like 勹 on top of 巴 instead.
Cheers,
Dyl.
Cheers,
Dyl.
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seba
Re: simplification rule
Dylan,
where did you get your information ? I mean, you are talking about 1964 publications and things, but could you be able to give a reference to it ? (author, title, date, publisher, ...)
maybe it would be a good idea to compile a unicode version of this page as a text file so people could use it for conversion-scripts,
I have intrested in working on this topic ... If you wan't we could write some more decent papers on this matter ...
seba
where did you get your information ? I mean, you are talking about 1964 publications and things, but could you be able to give a reference to it ? (author, title, date, publisher, ...)
maybe it would be a good idea to compile a unicode version of this page as a text file so people could use it for conversion-scripts,
I have intrested in working on this topic ... If you wan't we could write some more decent papers on this matter ...
seba
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seba
Re: simplification rule
i used the Unihan.txt -file to create an list of simplified and traditional variants
you can find it at : http://seba.ulyssis.org/devel/simptrad.txt
i also wrote a little script to parse this file, but since i have to study for my re-exams i don't have much time, so it still contains a lot of mistakes ... any help is welcome (there has to written a function that displayes all traditional variants in the correct way, now it only displays the first variant correctly)
http://seba.ulyssis.org/devel/simptrad.php
http://seba.ulyssis.org/devel/simptrad.phps
you can find it at : http://seba.ulyssis.org/devel/simptrad.txt
i also wrote a little script to parse this file, but since i have to study for my re-exams i don't have much time, so it still contains a lot of mistakes ... any help is welcome (there has to written a function that displayes all traditional variants in the correct way, now it only displays the first variant correctly)
http://seba.ulyssis.org/devel/simptrad.php
http://seba.ulyssis.org/devel/simptrad.phps
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Dylan Sung
Re: simplification rule
Did you know that the unihan.txt file whilst excellent, for want of a different source, is itself full of errors?
Having said that, a number of errors have been found in my pages too. All the characters were inputted by hand, and this makes for human error! The characters were encoded using HTML format, with the exception of the big list which I think was UTF8.
There is a bibliography link on the /hanzi section of my site.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hanzi/t-s-refs.htm
Dyl.
Having said that, a number of errors have been found in my pages too. All the characters were inputted by hand, and this makes for human error! The characters were encoded using HTML format, with the exception of the big list which I think was UTF8.
There is a bibliography link on the /hanzi section of my site.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hanzi/t-s-refs.htm
Dyl.