Kobo-Daishi wrote:
> I also read using my native dialect (Taishanese) which I learned from my
> parents. But it’s difficult when I come upon a character that I don’t know
> how to pronounce in Taishanese and have to resort to using its Mandarin
> pronunciation since there are no Taishanese dictionaries.
Is it possible to use etymological means to get a very likely guess on how a character should be pronounced in Taishanese?
Regards,
rathpy
[%sig%]
Memorizing Characters
-
Pazu
Re: Memorizing Characters
Well, I think the best way to learn Chinese characters is to make sure you study them every night. You can just learn one character a day, or 3 or 4 or even more (at least 3 a day makes more sense IMHO).
Some people can remember up to 10 or 20 chars a day, but then what, they aren't persistent enough and got nothing at all after a year.
Some people can remember up to 10 or 20 chars a day, but then what, they aren't persistent enough and got nothing at all after a year.
-
Dylan Sung
Re: Memorizing Characters
To Kobo-Daishi,
Hi, the convertors handles characters with multiple readings by grouping them within parenthesis, (this is true for the Mandarin, Hakka and Cantonese versions). Here is an example of text after conversion.
賀知章
ho6 ( zi1 zi3 ) zoeng1
回鄉偶書
wui4 ( hoeng1 hoeng3 ) ngau5 syu1
少小離家老大回
( siu2 siu3 ) siu2 ( lei4 lei6 ) ( gaa1 gu1 ) lou5 daai6 wui4
鄉音無改鬢毛衰
( hoeng1 hoeng3 ) jam1 mou4 goi2 ban3 mou4 ( ceoi1 seoi1 )
兒童相見不相識
( ji4 ngai4 ) tung4 ( soeng1 soeng3 ) ( gin3 jin6 ) bat7 ( soeng1 soeng3 ) ( sik7 zi3 )
笑問客從何處來
siu3 man6 haak8 ( cung4 sung1 zung6 ) ( ho4 ho6 ) ( cyu2 cyu3 syu3 ) ( lai4 loi4 loi6 )
However, due to my limited programming skills, it cannot detect what is a one byte character and what is a two byte character, and so treats them all as two bytes. Consequently, you have to be careful to use only Big5 code, and insert spaces after one byte characters so that one maintains the correct alignment of text throughout.
Where my program comes across a character which it either does not have data on, or recognise, it the space it occupies in the line is appended as +++ or three plus signs. If you use the Dos_prompt you will be able to read the progress of the conversion, but if you just click on the program it will run and once it has completed its run, it will disappear. You have to go to the directory to retrieve the outputted .htm file and read it in your browser.
One source you could extract Cantonese readings from is the Unihan.txt file (which you can download from unicode.org, however be warned, it is 16 MB, and contains lots of mistakes. I can't recall where I downloaded the Cantonese from. It was transferred off my old Win95 machine, which has since siezed up with a Windows registry problem. I think it may have been from the ifcss.org site, (now being updated and not yet online the last time I looked though there is a mirror at one of the Hong Kong universities).
The Cantonese data was slightly modified by me so that the endings -p, -t and -k instead of being distributed between the six basic tones, was instead extended to tones 7, 8, and 9 so you have the ying, zhong, and yang ru tones. Otherwise it is jyutping as far as I can gather where "j" is "y" in other romanisations etc..
The sad thing about this way of conversion is that if you have a text in baihua, it will just be converted into baihua not spoken Cantonese or Hakka. So, don't get your hopes up. It is only meant to be an aid to learning, rather than a language convertor.
The Mandarin list was from a input for Big5 for Win95, but I don't know where or when I downloaded it. Again, it is possible to extract the same or similar data from Unihan.txt. I notice that there are lots of repeats too in the unihan listed info, so beware. To extract purely Big5 characters, you could run the list of Big5 characters against the list extracted from unihan.
I had all these files salvaged from the old machine, and was tired of writing out the romanisation for poems and such, so created the program originally for Hakka, which was Lau's list, with some alterations and additions. Then I thought it was a good idea to do the same for Mandarin and Cantonese.
Since there is the problems associated with formatting your input to get the desired output, and that my programming skills are so poor, the programs are distributed as freeware.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/misc/dialect.htm
Dyl.
Hi, the convertors handles characters with multiple readings by grouping them within parenthesis, (this is true for the Mandarin, Hakka and Cantonese versions). Here is an example of text after conversion.
賀知章
ho6 ( zi1 zi3 ) zoeng1
回鄉偶書
wui4 ( hoeng1 hoeng3 ) ngau5 syu1
少小離家老大回
( siu2 siu3 ) siu2 ( lei4 lei6 ) ( gaa1 gu1 ) lou5 daai6 wui4
鄉音無改鬢毛衰
( hoeng1 hoeng3 ) jam1 mou4 goi2 ban3 mou4 ( ceoi1 seoi1 )
兒童相見不相識
( ji4 ngai4 ) tung4 ( soeng1 soeng3 ) ( gin3 jin6 ) bat7 ( soeng1 soeng3 ) ( sik7 zi3 )
笑問客從何處來
siu3 man6 haak8 ( cung4 sung1 zung6 ) ( ho4 ho6 ) ( cyu2 cyu3 syu3 ) ( lai4 loi4 loi6 )
However, due to my limited programming skills, it cannot detect what is a one byte character and what is a two byte character, and so treats them all as two bytes. Consequently, you have to be careful to use only Big5 code, and insert spaces after one byte characters so that one maintains the correct alignment of text throughout.
Where my program comes across a character which it either does not have data on, or recognise, it the space it occupies in the line is appended as +++ or three plus signs. If you use the Dos_prompt you will be able to read the progress of the conversion, but if you just click on the program it will run and once it has completed its run, it will disappear. You have to go to the directory to retrieve the outputted .htm file and read it in your browser.
One source you could extract Cantonese readings from is the Unihan.txt file (which you can download from unicode.org, however be warned, it is 16 MB, and contains lots of mistakes. I can't recall where I downloaded the Cantonese from. It was transferred off my old Win95 machine, which has since siezed up with a Windows registry problem. I think it may have been from the ifcss.org site, (now being updated and not yet online the last time I looked though there is a mirror at one of the Hong Kong universities).
The Cantonese data was slightly modified by me so that the endings -p, -t and -k instead of being distributed between the six basic tones, was instead extended to tones 7, 8, and 9 so you have the ying, zhong, and yang ru tones. Otherwise it is jyutping as far as I can gather where "j" is "y" in other romanisations etc..
The sad thing about this way of conversion is that if you have a text in baihua, it will just be converted into baihua not spoken Cantonese or Hakka. So, don't get your hopes up. It is only meant to be an aid to learning, rather than a language convertor.
The Mandarin list was from a input for Big5 for Win95, but I don't know where or when I downloaded it. Again, it is possible to extract the same or similar data from Unihan.txt. I notice that there are lots of repeats too in the unihan listed info, so beware. To extract purely Big5 characters, you could run the list of Big5 characters against the list extracted from unihan.
I had all these files salvaged from the old machine, and was tired of writing out the romanisation for poems and such, so created the program originally for Hakka, which was Lau's list, with some alterations and additions. Then I thought it was a good idea to do the same for Mandarin and Cantonese.
Since there is the problems associated with formatting your input to get the desired output, and that my programming skills are so poor, the programs are distributed as freeware.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/misc/dialect.htm
Dyl.
-
Kobo-Daishi
Re: Memorizing Characters
Dear Rathpy,
>Is it possible to use etymological means to get a very likely
>guess on how a character should be pronounced in Taishanese?
You mean by using an old rhyme dictionary?
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
>Is it possible to use etymological means to get a very likely
>guess on how a character should be pronounced in Taishanese?
You mean by using an old rhyme dictionary?
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
-
Kobo-Daishi
Re: Memorizing Characters
Dear Pazu,
>Well, I think the best way to learn Chinese characters
>is to make sure you study them every night. You can just
>learn one character a day, or 3 or 4 or even more
>(at least 3 a day makes more sense IMHO).
In Jerry Norman’s “Chinese”, the author cites a study conducted in the 1960s that concluded ‘that the average college-educated Chinese person who is not an expert in the fields of Chinese literature or Chinese history knew between 3,500 and 4,000 characters”.
At the rate of learning a character a day it would take about 10 years to become ‘literate’ in Chinese.
At 3 characters a day it would take a little more than 3 years, which seems doable.
>Some people can remember up to 10 or 20 chars a day, but
>then what, they aren't persistent enough and got nothing
>at all after a year.
20 characters a day? I might as well go to Jilin and take their free intensive 100-day course in 2500 characters which would work out to 25 characters a day.
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
>Well, I think the best way to learn Chinese characters
>is to make sure you study them every night. You can just
>learn one character a day, or 3 or 4 or even more
>(at least 3 a day makes more sense IMHO).
In Jerry Norman’s “Chinese”, the author cites a study conducted in the 1960s that concluded ‘that the average college-educated Chinese person who is not an expert in the fields of Chinese literature or Chinese history knew between 3,500 and 4,000 characters”.
At the rate of learning a character a day it would take about 10 years to become ‘literate’ in Chinese.
At 3 characters a day it would take a little more than 3 years, which seems doable.
>Some people can remember up to 10 or 20 chars a day, but
>then what, they aren't persistent enough and got nothing
>at all after a year.
20 characters a day? I might as well go to Jilin and take their free intensive 100-day course in 2500 characters which would work out to 25 characters a day.
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
-
Dylan Sung
Re: Memorizing Characters
Kobo-Daishi wrote:
> >Some people can remember up to 10 or 20 chars a day, but
> >then what, they aren't persistent enough and got nothing
> >at all after a year.
>
> 20 characters a day? I might as well go to Jilin and take their
> free intensive 100-day course in 2500 characters which would
> work out to 25 characters a day.
LOL!
Dyl.
> >Some people can remember up to 10 or 20 chars a day, but
> >then what, they aren't persistent enough and got nothing
> >at all after a year.
>
> 20 characters a day? I might as well go to Jilin and take their
> free intensive 100-day course in 2500 characters which would
> work out to 25 characters a day.
LOL!
Dyl.
-
rathpy
Re: Memorizing Characters
Kobo-Daishi,
> >Is it possible to use etymological means to get a very likely
> >guess on how a character should be pronounced in Taishanese?
>
> You mean by using an old rhyme dictionary?
Well, probably not by itself, {unless you can find a Taishanese rhyming dictionary}. I imagine that rhymes might well have diverged since those times.
Having no background in linguistics, and as a beginning learner of Cantonese, it would be foolish of me to state *how* to use etymological means to determine pronunciation of characters, so I'll just explain *why* this novice *thought* such a process *might be possible*.
... Say I wanted know how a character is pronounced in Cantonese, my Cantonese dictionary doesn't have it, and all my speaking friends are either illiterate or absent. I might start with looking it up in a Mandarin dictionary and list all characters that had the same Mandarin pronunciation. If I then consulted my Cantonese dictionary and found that the list of characters had a common Cantonese pronunciation, I would think it a good guess for the original character. Chances are, however, that you wouldn't just get a lone pronunciation from that list... but it's a start. Someone with skill might use etymology to help them narrow down the choices. They might have knowledge of how Mandarin and Cantonese diverged from Middle Chinese and evolved. They could work out the resulting correlations between the tones, initials and finals of the modern languages, and be able to reliably cite when one-to-one pronunciation correlations can be relied upon, and when alternatives may exist.
I'm not sure how much is written about the evolution of Taishanese (maybe nothing), but standard Cantonese is well-documented, I believe; and they are closer cousins to each other than to Mandarin. You are a native speaker of Taishanese, and you know Cantonese. Have you ever tried to tie down the similarities between the two?
Regards,
rathpy
(always willing to embarrass himself, in the pursuit of knowledge)
P.S.
When are you going to write your Taishanese dictionary and grammar books?
[%sig%]
> >Is it possible to use etymological means to get a very likely
> >guess on how a character should be pronounced in Taishanese?
>
> You mean by using an old rhyme dictionary?
Well, probably not by itself, {unless you can find a Taishanese rhyming dictionary
}. I imagine that rhymes might well have diverged since those times.Having no background in linguistics, and as a beginning learner of Cantonese, it would be foolish of me to state *how* to use etymological means to determine pronunciation of characters, so I'll just explain *why* this novice *thought* such a process *might be possible*.
... Say I wanted know how a character is pronounced in Cantonese, my Cantonese dictionary doesn't have it, and all my speaking friends are either illiterate or absent. I might start with looking it up in a Mandarin dictionary and list all characters that had the same Mandarin pronunciation. If I then consulted my Cantonese dictionary and found that the list of characters had a common Cantonese pronunciation, I would think it a good guess for the original character. Chances are, however, that you wouldn't just get a lone pronunciation from that list... but it's a start. Someone with skill might use etymology to help them narrow down the choices. They might have knowledge of how Mandarin and Cantonese diverged from Middle Chinese and evolved. They could work out the resulting correlations between the tones, initials and finals of the modern languages, and be able to reliably cite when one-to-one pronunciation correlations can be relied upon, and when alternatives may exist.
I'm not sure how much is written about the evolution of Taishanese (maybe nothing), but standard Cantonese is well-documented, I believe; and they are closer cousins to each other than to Mandarin. You are a native speaker of Taishanese, and you know Cantonese. Have you ever tried to tie down the similarities between the two?
Regards,
rathpy
(always willing to embarrass himself, in the pursuit of knowledge)
P.S.
When are you going to write your Taishanese dictionary and grammar books?
[%sig%]
-
Kobo-Daishi
Re: Memorizing Characters
Dear Rathpy,
>Well, probably not by itself, {unless you can find a
>Taishanese rhyming dictionary}.
Rhyme dictionaries were used to aid in the correct recitation of Literary Chinese by establishing a standard for pronunciation of Chinese characters. The standard was culled from a mix of Middle Chinese dialects, so, there wouldn’t be any rhyme dictionaries based upon any of the modern Chinese dialects (Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, Minnan, Taishanese, etc.)
>I imagine that rhymes might well have diverged since those times.
Yes, pronunciation does change with time but the Yue dialects (Cantonese and Taishanese) are more conservative than some of the other dialects and retain more of their final consonants than some of the other dialects.
>... Say I wanted know how a character is pronounced in
>Cantonese, my Cantonese dictionary doesn't have it, and
>all my speaking friends are either illiterate or absent.
>I might start with looking it up in a Mandarin dictionary
>and list all characters that had the same Mandarin
>pronunciation. If I then consulted my Cantonese dictionary
>and found that the list of characters had a common
>Cantonese pronunciation, I would think it a good guess for
>the original character. Chances are, however, that you
>wouldn't just get a lone pronunciation from that list...
>but it's a start.
That would be a good way to start.
I would check with the other modern dialects of Chinese starting with Mandarin and Cantonese because they are standardized more or less.
Disregarding tone, in the Taishanese that I speak some characters, are pronounced as they are in Mandarin and some are pronounced as they are in Cantonese.
We pronounce the following characters as they do in Mandarin:
好 (Mand: hao3, Cant: hou2) good
保 (Mand: bao3, Cant: bou2) protect
報 (Mand: bao4, Cant: bou3) newspaper
毛 (Mand: mao2, Cant: mou4) hair
料 (Mand: liao4, Cant: liu2) materials
票 (Mand: piao4, Cant: piu3) ticket
表 (Mand: biao3, Cant: biu2) show, display
錶 (Mand: biao3, Cant: biu1) watch
The following characters we pronounce like in Cantonese:
� (Mand: qu2 Cant: keui5) he/she (Yue)
企 (Mand: qi3, Cant: kei5) stand on tiptoe
你 (Mand: ni3, Cant: nei5) you
But some characters sound neither like Mandarin nor Cantonese in Taishanese.
For instance:
耳 (Mand: er3, Cant: yi5) ear-----------------NGEIH
二 (Mand: er4, Cant: yi6) two-----------------NGEIH
軟 (Mand: ruan3, Cant: yun5) soft-------------NGEUHN
日 (Mand: ri4, Cant: yat6) sun----------------NGEET
玉 (Mand: yu4, Cant: yuk6) jade---------------NGUHK
肉 (Mand: rou4, Cant: yuk6) meat--------------NGUHK
魚 (Mand: yu2, Cant: yu4) fish----------------NGEUIH
語 (Mand: yu3, Cant: yu5) language------------NGEUIH
人 (Mand: ren2, Cant: yan4) people------------NGEEN
忍 (Mand: ren3, Cant: yan2) endure------------NGEEN
認 (Mand: ren4, Cant: ying6) recognize--------NGEEN
Sorry for my weird Taishanese romanization. I think the Taishanese pronunciations for some of these characters would have more in common with the Hakka dialect, but I’m not certain.
As you can see here, Taishanese is more conservative in retaining the initial ng- sound that has been lost in Mandarin and Cantonese for these characters.
If I was making a Taishanese dictionary I think a combination of a rhyme dictionary and the modern dialects would be a great help.
A rhyme dictionary indicates a character’s pronunciation by using 2 other characters. One character would indicate the initial sound of the character because they would share the initial sound. The second character would indicate the final sound of the character because they would share the final sound.
For instance, based on the rhyme dictionaries the following characters should have the same initial sound as 胡 (Mand: hu2, Cant: wu4; to blunder; reckless) and the same final sound as 光 (Mand: guang1, Cant: gwong1; light, brilliant):
皇 emperor
偟 agitated
凰 phoenix
喤 sobbing, sound of bell
堭 a dry moat outside a city wall; a dry ditch
媓 name of a concubine of the Emperor Yao
徨 irresolute
湟 name of a river
煌 brilliant
篁 bamboo, bamboo grove
艎 fast-sailing boat
蝗 locust
遑 leisure
鍠 sounds of drums and bells
隍 dry moat
餭 pastry
鰉 sturgeon
and they do; huang in Mandarin and wong in Cantonese.
In Taishanese 胡 is pronounced “WU” and 光 is pronounced “GOHNG” so all the above characters should be pronounced “WOHNG”.
Now, I know 皇 (emperor) in Taishanese is WOHNG I can assume that the other characters, many that I have never heard in my life are probably also pronounced WOHNG.
>When are you going to write your Taishanese dictionary and grammar books?
Since Chinese is just a hobby of mine I don’t feel qualified to write a dictionary or a book on grammar.
Anyway, I don’t have a copy of any of the rhyme dictionaries even though I see reprints of old Song dynasty copies at the on-line Chinese bookstores all the time.
>always willing to embarrass himself, in the pursuit of knowledge
Don’t feel embarrassed. How else does one learn if they don’t ask?
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
>Well, probably not by itself, {unless you can find a
>Taishanese rhyming dictionary
}. Rhyme dictionaries were used to aid in the correct recitation of Literary Chinese by establishing a standard for pronunciation of Chinese characters. The standard was culled from a mix of Middle Chinese dialects, so, there wouldn’t be any rhyme dictionaries based upon any of the modern Chinese dialects (Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, Minnan, Taishanese, etc.)
>I imagine that rhymes might well have diverged since those times.
Yes, pronunciation does change with time but the Yue dialects (Cantonese and Taishanese) are more conservative than some of the other dialects and retain more of their final consonants than some of the other dialects.
>... Say I wanted know how a character is pronounced in
>Cantonese, my Cantonese dictionary doesn't have it, and
>all my speaking friends are either illiterate or absent.
>I might start with looking it up in a Mandarin dictionary
>and list all characters that had the same Mandarin
>pronunciation. If I then consulted my Cantonese dictionary
>and found that the list of characters had a common
>Cantonese pronunciation, I would think it a good guess for
>the original character. Chances are, however, that you
>wouldn't just get a lone pronunciation from that list...
>but it's a start.
That would be a good way to start.
I would check with the other modern dialects of Chinese starting with Mandarin and Cantonese because they are standardized more or less.
Disregarding tone, in the Taishanese that I speak some characters, are pronounced as they are in Mandarin and some are pronounced as they are in Cantonese.
We pronounce the following characters as they do in Mandarin:
好 (Mand: hao3, Cant: hou2) good
保 (Mand: bao3, Cant: bou2) protect
報 (Mand: bao4, Cant: bou3) newspaper
毛 (Mand: mao2, Cant: mou4) hair
料 (Mand: liao4, Cant: liu2) materials
票 (Mand: piao4, Cant: piu3) ticket
表 (Mand: biao3, Cant: biu2) show, display
錶 (Mand: biao3, Cant: biu1) watch
The following characters we pronounce like in Cantonese:
� (Mand: qu2 Cant: keui5) he/she (Yue)
企 (Mand: qi3, Cant: kei5) stand on tiptoe
你 (Mand: ni3, Cant: nei5) you
But some characters sound neither like Mandarin nor Cantonese in Taishanese.
For instance:
耳 (Mand: er3, Cant: yi5) ear-----------------NGEIH
二 (Mand: er4, Cant: yi6) two-----------------NGEIH
軟 (Mand: ruan3, Cant: yun5) soft-------------NGEUHN
日 (Mand: ri4, Cant: yat6) sun----------------NGEET
玉 (Mand: yu4, Cant: yuk6) jade---------------NGUHK
肉 (Mand: rou4, Cant: yuk6) meat--------------NGUHK
魚 (Mand: yu2, Cant: yu4) fish----------------NGEUIH
語 (Mand: yu3, Cant: yu5) language------------NGEUIH
人 (Mand: ren2, Cant: yan4) people------------NGEEN
忍 (Mand: ren3, Cant: yan2) endure------------NGEEN
認 (Mand: ren4, Cant: ying6) recognize--------NGEEN
Sorry for my weird Taishanese romanization. I think the Taishanese pronunciations for some of these characters would have more in common with the Hakka dialect, but I’m not certain.
As you can see here, Taishanese is more conservative in retaining the initial ng- sound that has been lost in Mandarin and Cantonese for these characters.
If I was making a Taishanese dictionary I think a combination of a rhyme dictionary and the modern dialects would be a great help.
A rhyme dictionary indicates a character’s pronunciation by using 2 other characters. One character would indicate the initial sound of the character because they would share the initial sound. The second character would indicate the final sound of the character because they would share the final sound.
For instance, based on the rhyme dictionaries the following characters should have the same initial sound as 胡 (Mand: hu2, Cant: wu4; to blunder; reckless) and the same final sound as 光 (Mand: guang1, Cant: gwong1; light, brilliant):
皇 emperor
偟 agitated
凰 phoenix
喤 sobbing, sound of bell
堭 a dry moat outside a city wall; a dry ditch
媓 name of a concubine of the Emperor Yao
徨 irresolute
湟 name of a river
煌 brilliant
篁 bamboo, bamboo grove
艎 fast-sailing boat
蝗 locust
遑 leisure
鍠 sounds of drums and bells
隍 dry moat
餭 pastry
鰉 sturgeon
and they do; huang in Mandarin and wong in Cantonese.
In Taishanese 胡 is pronounced “WU” and 光 is pronounced “GOHNG” so all the above characters should be pronounced “WOHNG”.
Now, I know 皇 (emperor) in Taishanese is WOHNG I can assume that the other characters, many that I have never heard in my life are probably also pronounced WOHNG.
>When are you going to write your Taishanese dictionary and grammar books?
Since Chinese is just a hobby of mine I don’t feel qualified to write a dictionary or a book on grammar.
Anyway, I don’t have a copy of any of the rhyme dictionaries even though I see reprints of old Song dynasty copies at the on-line Chinese bookstores all the time.
>always willing to embarrass himself, in the pursuit of knowledge
Don’t feel embarrassed. How else does one learn if they don’t ask?
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
-
Dylan Sung
Re: Memorizing Characters
Kobo Daishi wrote
: 耳 (Mand: er3, Cant: yi5) ear-----------------NGEIH
: 二 (Mand: er4, Cant: yi6) two-----------------NGEIH
: 軟 (Mand: ruan3, Cant: yun5) soft-------------NGEUHN
: 日 (Mand: ri4, Cant: yat6) sun----------------NGEET
: 玉 (Mand: yu4, Cant: yuk6) jade---------------NGUHK
: 肉 (Mand: rou4, Cant: yuk6) meat--------------NGUHK
: 魚 (Mand: yu2, Cant: yu4) fish----------------NGEUIH
: 語 (Mand: yu3, Cant: yu5) language------------NGEUIH
: 人 (Mand: ren2, Cant: yan4) people------------NGEEN
: 忍 (Mand: ren3, Cant: yan2) endure------------NGEEN
: 認 (Mand: ren4, Cant: ying6) recognize--------NGEEN
: Sorry for my weird Taishanese romanization. I think the Taishanese pronunciations for some of these characters
: would have more in common with the Hakka dialect, but I’m not certain.
Yes. All these have /N/ (ng) initials in Hakka. For fish, my wife's Longchuan dialect of north east Guangdong is /Niu51/ but I say /N/ a syllable velar nasal.
The above list in ASCII IPA except for fish as I say it in Hong Kong Hakka are as follows:
/Ni31/, /Ni53/, /NiOn33/, /Nit3/, /Niuk5/, /Niuk3/, fish, /Ni33/, /Nin11/, /Niun33/, /Nin53/
Dyl.
: 耳 (Mand: er3, Cant: yi5) ear-----------------NGEIH
: 二 (Mand: er4, Cant: yi6) two-----------------NGEIH
: 軟 (Mand: ruan3, Cant: yun5) soft-------------NGEUHN
: 日 (Mand: ri4, Cant: yat6) sun----------------NGEET
: 玉 (Mand: yu4, Cant: yuk6) jade---------------NGUHK
: 肉 (Mand: rou4, Cant: yuk6) meat--------------NGUHK
: 魚 (Mand: yu2, Cant: yu4) fish----------------NGEUIH
: 語 (Mand: yu3, Cant: yu5) language------------NGEUIH
: 人 (Mand: ren2, Cant: yan4) people------------NGEEN
: 忍 (Mand: ren3, Cant: yan2) endure------------NGEEN
: 認 (Mand: ren4, Cant: ying6) recognize--------NGEEN
: Sorry for my weird Taishanese romanization. I think the Taishanese pronunciations for some of these characters
: would have more in common with the Hakka dialect, but I’m not certain.
Yes. All these have /N/ (ng) initials in Hakka. For fish, my wife's Longchuan dialect of north east Guangdong is /Niu51/ but I say /N/ a syllable velar nasal.
The above list in ASCII IPA except for fish as I say it in Hong Kong Hakka are as follows:
/Ni31/, /Ni53/, /NiOn33/, /Nit3/, /Niuk5/, /Niuk3/, fish, /Ni33/, /Nin11/, /Niun33/, /Nin53/
Dyl.